Author Topic: Propeller Efficiency Help  (Read 3078 times)

Offline dtango

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Re: Propeller Efficiency Help
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2010, 01:22:54 PM »
Ok, the lightbulb came on with that last sentence.  So, for example, to say eta p at 320mph is 83% is probably close, since my calculation used 2000bhp for that, and at max level speed, power required would be 2000bhp.

Yes.  At max level speed your airspeed is constant which means T=D at full engine power.  At stall speed with full power T>D.  Stall speed drag=1287 lbs as you've calculated.  However at 96mph but full power (2000hp) and assuming eta at .6 your thrust would be 4680 lbs, thus you can't assume T=D at stall speed at full engine power...

...unless of course your eta is a crappy 16% ;).

Tango
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 01:34:25 PM by dtango »
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Offline dtango

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Re: Propeller Efficiency Help
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2010, 01:30:35 PM »
Stoneys mistake brought a question to my head.

What is the definition of a power on stall speed?

I see 2 possibilities.

1. Full power in climb stall speed.

2. Min power required to maintain level flight.

HiTech
All the power-on stall procedures I've seen are some variation of #1 and not #2.  But what do I know since I'm not a real flight test engineer or test pilot!   :joystick:

Tango
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Offline BulletVI

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Re: Propeller Efficiency Help
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2010, 01:35:39 PM »
You can already adjust prop pitch, it's called an RPM control.

HiTech

Ahem iu thought RPM meant you move the throttle forward you get more speed like in your car  :confused:  :confused: :headscratch: :headscratch:
But if you have incorperated it as all in one control then i getcha  :) :D
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Offline hitech

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Re: Propeller Efficiency Help
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2010, 01:39:48 PM »
Ahem iu thought RPM meant you move the throttle forward you get more speed like in your car  :confused:  :confused: :headscratch: :headscratch:
But if you have incorperated it as all in one control then i getcha  :) :D

You have 2 controls on the WWII planes and AH.

1. Is throttle like in the car, it lets more air into the engine.

2. Is the rpm control that sets the governor RPM. (+ and - keys on the number pad)

Apply throttle = more air =  more power =  governor  changes pitch to keep same RPM.

HiTech


Offline BulletVI

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Re: Propeller Efficiency Help
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2010, 01:44:33 PM »
You have 2 controls on the WWII planes and AH.

1. Is throttle like in the car, it lets more air into the engine.

2. Is the rpm control that sets the governor RPM. (+ and - keys on the number pad)

Apply throttle = more air =  more power =  governor  changes pitch to keep same RPM.

HiTech




Ah cool it just a wee bity different to iL2's control's it get's confusing playing both game's at time's. And i am actualy easily confused at the moment altho Ace's is helping me with my medical condition at the time being

And i thank you and your team for that hitech.

oh and please check the wish list i have wished for a new plane :)  :salute :salute
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Offline Badboy

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Re: Propeller Efficiency Help
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2010, 03:28:28 PM »
I'd enjoy seeing that.

Ok, here goes...

We start with Newton's law:



Essentially, the propeller accelerates a mass of air, and in that equation m will be the mass of air and a will be the acceleration of the air and then F will be the resulting force, that is the thrust.

So, what we do is to consider what happens in one second. Firstly, we need to calculate how much air will pass through the prop, and then multiply that by the density of the air so that we have the mass. Then we multiply that by the acceleration of the air. We do that by assuming that the air will form a circular shaft, with the same diameter as the prop. We will use letters from the Greek alphabet and typically a change in any quantity is normally preceded by the Greek letter delta, so delta v will be the change in velocity. We use the Greek letter Rho for the density of the air.

So now we can substitute into #1 



That is just the mass airflow through the prop per second, multiplied by the change in velocity during that second. The problem is that we have the term delta v in there and later we will want to eliminate it from the equation, so we need some more relationships.

Now we need to introduce the term for efficiency and we use the Greek letter eta, and efficiency is just output power divided by the input power and the output power is the thrust times the velocity and the input power is the power of the engine, and we express that like this:



rearranging that we get:



Also, the power absorbed by the propeller can be expressed as the thrust times the average velocity through it, like this:



If we equate #4 and #5 and then solve for delta v we get:




Now if we solve #5 for the thrust we get:



Now we can equate that to #2 to get:



Now we can substitute the value of delta v from #7 to get:



That looks complicated, but we can simplify it to this:



and we can rearrange that like this...



That is one of the standard forms of a cubic equation, and you notice that two of the terms in there appear to be the same. So we can simplify this even more by letting:



Then #16 is just:



That's an amazingly simple result for the efficiency of the prop, and it can be solved. All we need to do is evaluate a in #17 and substitute it into the standard solution shown below:



Remember, that's going to give us the maximum theoretically possible efficiency, but there will be losses, so one practical solution recommended by Perkins and Hage is to multiply the result by 0.8587. We will do that here for simplicity, but it is possible to estimate the losses and include them in the calculations.

So, let's do an example using the data from earlier in the thread and calculate the efficiency of the F6F prop at 96mph.

Then we have:

D = 13.08
Rho = 0.0024
P = 2000 x 550
v = 140.8

So now we calculate the value of a:



Now we substitute that into the solution given above, evaluate it and apply the reduction factor recommended by Perkins and Hage as follows:



So we have a prop with 64% efficiency, slightly more than my earlier guess.

Hope that helps...

Badboy
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 05:44:00 PM by Badboy »
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Propeller Efficiency Help
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2010, 04:06:05 PM »
Excellent Badboy, I appreciate the effort that went into posting that, thanks.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

HiTech

Offline dtango

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Re: Propeller Efficiency Help
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2010, 05:27:02 PM »
Ok, here goes...

................


Hope that helps...

Badboy
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)