Author Topic: P51's for sale  (Read 7134 times)

Offline flight17

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2010, 01:03:12 PM »
and he also references a 3/4 scale P-51 with a lawnmower engine as an airframe. So in that context, i assumed that the "P-51 Airframe" above woud be a fairly complete aircraft.

But even if it is just the frame itself, i still wouldnt call it a new P-51. If they are building them for the purpose to make "new" P-51 i still say its a replica. Now if they are building a frame to keep an existing, "old" but an actual P-51 flying then i would say its still a real P-51. There is a double standard there, but if i were to buy one, thats how i would look at it.

if i bought the new airframe to make into a P-51, i would say its a P-51 replica as some finishing parts were from real P-51(s) but the airframe itself was built to be made into a "new" P-51.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2010, 02:12:11 PM »
I dont think the FAA would approve of the parts being used in original P-51s. They might be precisely the same but the way the FAA regulates things I dont think that would be allowed. Producing "kits" is one thing...

The copyright on the original NAA design will not run out until at least 2034 (maybe longer) so this company is likely paying a licensing fee. I find it interesting that it is cheaper to produce in Germany than it would be here but its a good thing to have more Mustangs even if they arent original.
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Offline flight17

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2010, 02:47:08 PM »
I dont think the FAA would approve of the parts being used in original P-51s. They might be precisely the same but the way the FAA regulates things I dont think that would be allowed. Producing "kits" is one thing...

do you mean the old parts being used on the "new aircraft" or new parts on old aircraft?

I know some current "old" warbirds are multiple aircraft mixed and matched to have a complete aircraft. I also know that some aircraft have had new major parts made as you cant find the old ones.

I know on our F24 Maggies Pride the metal-tube fuselage is origional and the main wooden Wing spar is origional (was inspected and found to be in good condition), but the rest of the wing was made from completely new wood. But our conditions for restoration might be different because of the fact that it is wood...


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Offline Chalenge

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2010, 04:40:51 PM »
I mean that the industry the Germans entered into is a "kit market" and that entirely new regulations (and probably fees) would come into play if they were trying to make parts for the older aircraft "type rated" as they were (or fully built aircraft either one).

If Im not mistaken the Silence Twister has the fuselage made by DG-Flugzeugbau primarily to save Silence on further regulation but also to allow DG-Flugzeugbau a small amount of business that they have lost with a decline in the sailplane market.

BTW the Twister can be purchased for around $40k (US) and is just one step above an ultralight yet its fully aerobatic and has tremendous range (600 km or so).

http://www.twisterduo.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk4_qE-nD_Q
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Offline bagrat

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2010, 05:04:51 PM »
would be interesting if 1 time on Mtv cribs u saw someone have a bunch of p-51's instead of all the other shat they spend there money on like gold plated toilet that has a seat that goes down on its own
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Offline saggs

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2010, 05:29:35 PM »
You from Eastern PA?

Nope...

The 3/4 scale mustang I saw was at the Pocetello, ID airport.   My brother and I where refuelling, (Cessna 152  :rock ) so was he.   I don't think it lived there, have no idea where it was based.



Offline Golfer

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2010, 07:25:26 PM »
There are a few guys in RVs who fly around as you described and we just had a B-17 nearby.  It was completely surreal a little over a month ago we were waiting for an ATC release to takeoff from our Philly Metro Area airport.  Looking at the TCAS page we see an airplane that'll end up being about a mile north of the field going East to West.  Looking through the early morning sunlight and mist emerged a B-17 lumbering along as it positioned itself for what I imagined to be a flyby for the small airport an airshow was taking place.  I have to admit I've never looked up just to see a B-17 happening along...much cool.

Offline Rino

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2010, 07:43:39 PM »
     The Flugwerk 190s have either P&W or Russian radials.

http://www.flugwerk.de/

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Offline dedalos

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2010, 08:26:30 AM »

Apologies for the words words words, but every time I think about the rebirth of two of the most iconic fighter planes ever to fly, I get excited.  :banana:

The spitfire and the 109?  :P
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Offline jd

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2010, 10:13:42 AM »
This kit plane WISHES it had a lawnmower engine.




And a RV-8 that flew in for the day. :salute

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Offline Demetrious

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2010, 03:00:13 PM »
But even if it is just the frame itself, i still wouldnt call it a new P-51. If they are building them for the purpose to make "new" P-51 i still say its a replica.

Personally, I consider a "replica" to be an exact reproduction of the original. For example, Springfield manufactures a 1911 .45 pistol that is an exact replica of the original GI army pistol the Springfield Armory manufactured in WWII- they make the same gun, from the same factory drawings. These are replicas, yes, but if you tried to look me in the eye and tell me they aren't a "real" GI 1911, because they were manufactured 50 years after the war- despite being identical- I would be forced to punch you in the gizzard. Literally forced; it's an involuntary reflex.

You sound exactly like those guys at gun shows who try to sell me beat-to-shit M1As for twice the price of a new one because they're "all original matching serial numbers." Or those people who insist that the prints of a great ink-drawing artwork are just "trash reproductions" and only the original paper with the ink on it can be called "art," although they all hit the eye and the emotions with the same weight.

Now I'll readily agree that the "intangible" nature of historical value is important. Whether it be as grand as the Flying Bockscar or as chillingly humble as a beat-up Mosin Nagant at a gun show with a stock still stained with the blood of the Russian soldier who died holding it, the fact that you are looking at or touching a remnant of a history that happened is powerful. But by the same token, a new creation of an old model has an intangible value all it's own. The fact that you can buy a brand-new Springfield GI 1911 makes the gun a part of living history, not just a remembered one. Recall the awe of the characters in Jurassic Park when they saw living, breathing dinosaurs again walking the earth- that's the same magic to be found in a new P-51.

Quote from: Chalenge
I dont think the FAA would approve of the parts being used in original P-51s. They might be precisely the same but the way the FAA regulates things I dont think that would be allowed. Producing "kits" is one thing...

You're right- the German kit frames are designated "AP-51s" (The "Palamino" Mustang) to distinguish them from 1940s originals per FAA regulations. One reason for that (as stated on their site) is to avoid confusion with "original" Mustang parts. Even though they're identical parts, the difference is important to note for the same reason people advertise old rifles having "matching serial numbers-" simply because many people do care about the "originality" for whatever reason.

The reason that matters to the FAA, I suspect, is one of simple safety- in a complex vehicle that's going to be put under physical strain while carrying a person in it, it's important to know the age of the materials constituting the airframe. If your right main spar was manufactured in 1945- in an era where metallurgy and quality control thereof were less advanced- and it's been put through 50 years of strain and stress in flight, and your left main spar is brand-spanking-new- well, you need to be aware of that. Unknowingly putting together a "Frankenstien" plane can be dangerous.

Offline Jayhawk

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2010, 03:55:50 PM »
Personally, I consider a "replica" to be an exact reproduction of the original. For example, Springfield manufactures a 1911 .45 pistol that is an exact replica of the original GI army pistol the Springfield Armory manufactured in WWII- they make the same gun, from the same factory drawings. These are replicas, yes, but if you tried to look me in the eye and tell me they aren't a "real" GI 1911, because they were manufactured 50 years after the war- despite being identical- I would be forced to punch you in the gizzard. Literally forced; it's an involuntary reflex.

You sound exactly like those guys at gun shows who try to sell me beat-to-toejam M1As for twice the price of a new one because they're "all original matching serial numbers." Or those people who insist that the prints of a great ink-drawing artwork are just "trash reproductions" and only the original paper with the ink on it can be called "art," although they all hit the eye and the emotions with the same weight.

Now I'll readily agree that the "intangible" nature of historical value is important. Whether it be as grand as the Flying Bockscar or as chillingly humble as a beat-up Mosin Nagant at a gun show with a stock still stained with the blood of the Russian soldier who died holding it, the fact that you are looking at or touching a remnant of a history that happened is powerful. But by the same token, a new creation of an old model has an intangible value all it's own. The fact that you can buy a brand-new Springfield GI 1911 makes the gun a part of living history, not just a remembered one. Recall the awe of the characters in Jurassic Park when they saw living, breathing dinosaurs again walking the earth- that's the same magic to be found in a new P-51.

You're right- the German kit frames are designated "AP-51s" (The "Palamino" Mustang) to distinguish them from 1940s originals per FAA regulations. One reason for that (as stated on their site) is to avoid confusion with "original" Mustang parts. Even though they're identical parts, the difference is important to note for the same reason people advertise old rifles having "matching serial numbers-" simply because many people do care about the "originality" for whatever reason.

The reason that matters to the FAA, I suspect, is one of simple safety- in a complex vehicle that's going to be put under physical strain while carrying a person in it, it's important to know the age of the materials constituting the airframe. If your right main spar was manufactured in 1945- in an era where metallurgy and quality control thereof were less advanced- and it's been put through 50 years of strain and stress in flight, and your left main spar is brand-spanking-new- well, you need to be aware of that. Unknowingly putting together a "Frankenstien" plane can be dangerous.

"punch you in the gizzard"

What a great post!  I couldn't agree more.  :aok

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2010, 06:02:18 PM »
The reason that matters to the FAA, I suspect, is one of simple safety- in a complex vehicle that's going to be put under physical strain while carrying a person in it, it's important to know the age of the materials constituting the airframe. If your right main spar was manufactured in 1945- in an era where metallurgy and quality control thereof were less advanced- and it's been put through 50 years of strain and stress in flight, and your left main spar is brand-spanking-new- well, you need to be aware of that. Unknowingly putting together a "Frankenstien" plane can be dangerous.

In a way your right but I suspect the restrictions are more of a burden when proving compliance for approval. Surplus military aircraft are a special restricted category and would probably require more time in paperwork and incur greater costs in certification.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgOrders.nsf/0/58D0FAB19EBE74ED862574A5005232D8?OpenDocument

This is why a lot of "kit" manufacturers do not produce the same plane as a completed type.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2010, 06:38:58 PM »
There are a few guys in RVs who fly around as you described and we just had a B-17 nearby.  It was completely surreal a little over a month ago we were waiting for an ATC release to takeoff from our Philly Metro Area airport.  Looking at the TCAS page we see an airplane that'll end up being about a mile north of the field going East to West.  Looking through the early morning sunlight and mist emerged a B-17 lumbering along as it positioned itself for what I imagined to be a flyby for the small airport an airshow was taking place.  I have to admit I've never looked up just to see a B-17 happening along...much cool.

I loved that my HS was nearby the 101 freeway and aproach to Van Nuys Airport, you would get about once a month a random flyby during lunch or resses of a group of old WWII warbirds flying low in formation on their aproach to Van Nuys, typicaly some P-47s but once a year about you'd see a B-25, 17, or C47 flying along in with the "regulars".
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 06:45:01 PM by Babalonian »
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Offline flight17

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Re: P51's for sale
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2010, 09:05:34 PM »
In a way your right but I suspect the restrictions are more of a burden when proving compliance for approval. Surplus military aircraft are a special restricted category and would probably require more time in paperwork and incur greater costs in certification.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgOrders.nsf/0/58D0FAB19EBE74ED862574A5005232D8?OpenDocument

This is why a lot of "kit" manufacturers do not produce the same plane as a completed type.
hell, the FAA is rediculous with paperwork... We have been trying to get 3 aircraft registered now for the last 3 or so years and have just now gotten one of them done.
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