Stopped by WWI arena

[Yeager]

The Dr1 holds together when all other planes break apart.  I have been in numerous fights with Dr1s in everything available (yes, including Dr1s) and the only plane that can follow the Dr1 through all its convoluted gyrations, without breaking apart at the seams, is another Dr1.  

If Dr1s would simply fail structurally at a rate roughly comparable with the other three rides then some balance would be restored to the force.  Both Brit planes break apart with relative ease, the D7 is harder to break but does so on occasion.  I cannot recall an instance where I have broken a Dr1 structurally.  I have ruined plenty of engines in the Dr1, perhaps more so than the others, but the reason for this I figure is the other planes are breaking apart before the engine can fail.

[SCTusk]

Sometime over the last day or two (chronologically challenged due to old age) another Camel jock fired a tongue in cheek text to the Dr1 pilot who'd just shot him down, along the lines of 'why do you always fly that noob plane?' This sort of thing occassionally ruffles a few feathers but I'm pretty sure it's all in good fun, maybe with a slight sting in the tail brought about by frustration. Unless you can bring something else into the fight, a turnfight with a well handled a/c which can out-turn you will usually only end one way. But I presume we'd all agree that since the nature of the game is to seize an advantage and capitalize on it, there can be no valid complaint. So all the leg pulling is either in good fun, or just sour grapes.

With all this in mind, from now on when I come across an experienced Dr1 driver I'll presume that complaints about HO's, gang-banging and alt monkeys are also leg pulls and continue to press home any advantage with gusto    If you'd prefer to return to 'gentlemens rules' grab another ride and leave the freaky little tripe to the newcomers.

And yes, if I'm involved in any HO's, gang-bangs or alt monkeying on your DR1 you can take it as a compliment 

(A call goes out to Camel drivers everywhere - the gloves are off chaps. Eliminate the Dr1's at any cost; let us be rid of this scourge! Terminate with prejudice muhaha) 

[Yellow39]

Hiya Tusk , ty for answering my post ... humm my experience with the camel comes from the ppl I have been fighting and not cause I fly the plane. I think the camel is more of an energy fighter vs the Dr1 ,  what I see from my cockpit if  I'm fighting  one is that turns on a dime at high speed and can reverse the fight terms in a heart beat  if someone skilled and experienced  is flying it . The weak points I find is being outturn at lower speeds and poor diving performance w wings breaking  , low on the deck and slow is really flying under the Dr1 terms ,  hard to outmaneuver the German triplane under those conditions. As you said the longest the fight and the lowest it goes the more  chances for the Dr1 to be victorious.

I do agree with Raven post, you have to practice and learn what u r flying before you go there , he simply nailed the whole topic right in the head.Honestly when I learn you guys been playing AH since the 90's I can only bow in respect.I didn't know it was that long !! I joined AH  when WW1 arenas came up by pure coincidence and since then I ve spent 99% of my time flying there and one plane only although sometimes I jump in another plane. I have try to learn by watching how you guys fly , MeanDog , Raven , Tusk , Snefens , Wormzila , Death , Mano, Kuhn , Billreed , Viper , Pipaluce, Iwlf , Skullace or anyone going there with something good to show , from every fight always learnt something and yes I memorized  the "Dicta Boelcke" and read WW1 testimonials , novels and all that .. The whole purpose of a fight no matter which one and no matter what conditions is to win. I enjoy the game winning or losing but everytime I take off the ideal set in my mind is to go there and land as many kills as I can , sometimes it can be done and sometimes  cannot  but that's another thing. Losing is not an option but if it does happen I salute my opponent  , I congratulate him for his victory and take off again thinking how I'm going to achieve success this  time. That's the beauty of the game .. unless real life .. there is always a next time. 
 
Ehre

[meandog]

Great post Ehre...which is one my favorite nemesis along with Worm and Happy....

All of these negative post about the camel is getting old. For the next 2 weeks I will fly only the F1 camel. I am sure I will die alot during the learning curve but that's part of learning.

Maybe we could get all the experienced dr1 stiks to go to camels for awhile just to give the arena a chance. Just a thought...but I will be in one myself.

[meandog]

Had my first night with the camel. Took several sorties to get the feel of the bird. Died several times but got a few kills also. I am still disgusted with the views in it but only ripped wings once. The last fight was with a dr1 pilot that is in the top 3 in there. Had him bleeding oil and was a long intense fight. The 2nd dr1 came in right at the end of the fight. But naturally I did not win. I made a mistake and the result was me ramming him. But it was my fault not the planes fault.

By the end of 2 weeks I might even take on raven,ehre,worm,xcelsier and the rest of the pros without fear.

[F6Fraven]

Sorry Meandog but even after 200 weeks you'll still be fearing me in a D7 hehe

[SCTusk]

The whole purpose of a fight no matter which one and no matter what conditions is to win.

If this really was WW1 I would agree, but a game (particularly a game struggling for numbers) has different priorities. I believe we need to take player satisfaction into account. If I come across a lone opponent in the evening here in Australia (my usual time to play but USA asleep so very few on) it's quite likely he's new to the arena, and possibly even to air combat sims in general. Should I gun him down until he leaves in frustration? I don't think so. Even if only 1 in twenty of the guys I treat with kid gloves returns, it's a step in the right direction. So I try to get them to open up... sometimes no response (can they even figure out the radio?) sometimes a good chat; often I'll drop below them and throw a few evasives for awhile as they slowly get the hang of it. I know that Zmeg does this also, maybe a few others.

So in that instance at least, the win is secondary. The next situation depends more on the general mood in the arena at the time, and respect for the opponent. But quite often after damaging his wing or similar, it's a feelgood moment for everyone if you simply pull off and allow your adversary the opportunity to attempt an rtb. I guess it's all very 'early war' this stuff, before everyone realised (in the real war) that with so much death and horrible injury around they just couldn't afford to fight a 'gentlemans' war'. We don't have to worry about death or fearful wounds though, not unless you pull an all nighter with a weak ticker or the suction cups fail on your stick just as RaVeN drops on your six. So I figure in general we can afford to carry on with the early war sentiment, the 'boys own' version of WW1. And bravo say I, more fun all round.

The Dr1 matched with a capable and experienced pilot is (as the game stands now) the ultimate weapon; the longbow, the gatling gun, the Fokker Eindecker. It's full of helium and has twice the ammo as the Camel; it's built like a shipping crate and turns fast, initial and sustained. It has good visibility, and for some strange reason it knows the extreme limit of where your guns will bear, and can fly just outside it in the most annoying way while the pilot graphic turns leering and gives you the finger - I swear I've seen it many times over.

Just as the Fokker Scourge swept away any remaining traces of the 'gentlemans' war' so we have our own Fokker (Dr1) Scourge. The future of the arena hangs in the balance.... will history repeat itself?

Maybe we'll get the SE5a's or Spad's lol

btw wtg Meandog and good luck in the Camel  

  

  

[Yellow39]

I just had a fight with my good friend  flying the camel properly .. he got my Dr1  full of holes and no I couldn't outturn him cause he timed his maneuvers correctly ..  I got myself into a Camel  and got two kills my first time in that plane , and I mean fighting 2 vs 1 at same time  and yes one of them was a Dr1 the other a D7.. sure it took me 5-6 minutes but still .. Meandog also experimenting  with the camel got 4 kills in one sortie fighting outnumbered , wormzila already an experten w the green plane  throws himself in the middle of the furball with confidence .. Why most ppl choose a Dr1 coming to the arena ? Maybe cause it is got three wings , maybe cause is short and fat , I have no clue ...   

Maybe they can give the Dr1 a little bit more of  roll rate to make it even w the D7 !! hahahaah  (just kidding)

Tusk you are pointing at one specific situation (newbies coming to the arena trying to get the "feeling" of an air combat sim ) ..I thought we were talking about the regulars . You are  very passionate defending your points of view and that's fair. We should all do the same    Peace

I stick to my opinion ..I think  it is fair play for everybody as it stands now .

Ehre

[SCTusk]

Wtg guys, sounds like you're already having some success in the F1  Good on you also for giving it a go.

Just to be clear, this isn't a respect issue; everyone has that (from me at least, tentatively) by default even if I don't know them, then eventually by confirmation through observation (unless they turn out to be one of those thankfully rare types who sadly doesn't play well with others). As for game skill, I suppose the acknowledgement of that is a form of respect but let's just call it appreciation. So where I'm coming from here is that I already appreciate the skill of many Dr1 drivers; and most of them also have my respect (and I would like to think are or are becoming good online friends). Which should clear up any doubts about this issue being personal or casting aspersions in any way.

Neither am I completely suprised that 'ace' Dr1 drivers can jump into the Camel and achieve great results. But I do honestly believe that if you could somehow fly against yourself in both a/c then the Dr1 'you' would win most of the time. In this type of combat even a 5% advantage is going to result in victory 95% of the time. I think the advantage which the Dr1 holds over the Camel is probably worth at least 5%. If you have some clever tactic that could reverse this situation I would be very happy to hear it lol.

     

[Yeager]

I have had some great fights recently F1 vs Dr1 that simply end with my F1 breaking apart. 

[Yellow39]

I have been flying the camel now for few hours  and I can feel the pain you are mentioning ... however I have been able not to let the Dr1 take me down to the deck where he is stronger by fighting energy an making  sure I always hold a little advantage over him in case something goes wrong .. very difficult to do. As a result I can leave the fight if I want but of course I cannot kill the guy .. the problem is when the bloody swarm of Dr1's  come to the deck looking for the next possible victim (me in the F1) ... then I come back to base and land .. of course 20 minutes flying and .. you guessed , zero kills . It seems like the F1 with those big wings attracts the Dr1 cause they are a big target to shoot at so at any given point if 3 Dr1 are fighting X number of enemies and you show up in the F1 , they will leave whatever they are doing and try to jump on you ... bloody hell , I ve experienced this in my own skin , was fighting a Dr1 and suddenly 2 more show up out of nowhere leaving their fights and coming for me.

My biggest fear  like Yeager pointed , I' m afraid to break my wings on the dive . I have never been afraid to break my wings flying the Dr1 under high stress situations and although I have break them eventually .. they can hold together longer than the F1. It is a fact .. when diving you must keep your eyes on the speed or else you ll find yourself wingless. My other problem is visibility, dam is difficult when u r used to the open view of the Dr1. One thing I notice , if you want to look your enemy when you bank  , u must do so through that semicircle hole on the top wings ( unless u ve trackIR , not present here  ) , that automatically makes you to bank left or right sharper than intended ,  otherwise u cannot see the enemy , very difficult to keep the enemy at bay when u have no idea what he is doing. I think it is essential to watch enemy maneuvers at all times during the fight , this is difficult to do in the Camel , by contrast  extremely easy on the Dr1 ... also bleeding speed on these sharp turns is something  the camel pilot  cannot allow himself to lose , it performs excellent at high speeds but not so good less than 80 mph unless of course some serious expert camel flier is on the controls, certainly not me . 

I will keep flying the F1 and will post more , so far I think  your post are very accurate and the plane is not intended for newbie hands. I would love to hear from Wormzilla , he has been flying the F1 for some time now .. I know he was unsuccessful vs Iwlf and I counted 2 kills for worm (F1) and 4 for iwlf (Dr1) when they clashed 1 vs 1, couple of times worm ended like a matchstick with his engine on fire. I can testify this cause I was in the cockpit with my good friend iwlf when this happened.

Ehre

[Yeager]

There is no doubt that when a fellow fights as much to stay above you as he does to shoot you down, then you are fighting against someone who knows what he is doing.  The best way I have found to kill a Dr1 is to stay on top.  To pull him up to me and then as he stalls and falls away that is where I shoot him.  Try to shoot the pilot.  Its when I have the nose down straining to stay with the Dr1 as it gyrates out of his stall that I typically lose my wings.

[SCTusk]

The best way I have found to kill a Dr1 is to stay on top.  To pull him up to me and then as he stalls and falls away that is where I shoot him.

Of course, the problem there is that the Dr1 is known (both historically and in-game) for its' ability to hang on its' prop and shoot accurately at a/c above; the more you look into it, the more you realise what an outstanding little beast it is. And that leads inevitably to a contradiction.... why did they only produce a few hundred of them? The obvious yet incorrect answer is structural failure. In the first place, losing a few pilots due to occassional over-eagerness wouldn't have been enough to abandon the entire type (the Camel for instance killed almost as many allied pilots as it did German airmen, yet over 5,000 were produced). Second, in light of its' other virtues they would have simply redoubled their efforts to correct the design.

Considering that at the time the skies over the Western Front were darkening with Sopwith Camels (also a turnfighter - designed specifically to capitalize on the gyroscopic effect of precession) the reason for abandoning the type becomes clear; the Camel was superior. Whether it was simply a better turnfighter, or had a more complex advantage (almost as good in the turns and significantly faster?) seems unclear, but the fact remains we have a situation in-game which does not reflect reality. Whenever this comes up there's a small storm of indignant outrage from the Dr1 drivers, but it's a fact none the less.... you just have to examine the evidence to realise that in reality the Camel was superior, and in-game the Dr1 has the edge.

[dog1]

From the mouth of a dr1 stick.... it's over modeled compared to the Camule. Or Camule is under modeled....The Dr1 turns left or right with ease...no effect from rotating mass of engine... Camule harder to turn left than tri plane. Seems like Dr1 should have that same effect. I think Dr1 had a little bit better turning radius than Camule, but it shouldn't over take it in one and a half turns...... Camule blows e way faster, but it may have in real life, so wont wine about that. In all i really love flying the Camule now. And the  d7. I think the whole ww1 thang would be served a good turn if HT would nurf the Dr1 ...just a little   

[meandog]

After 2 days of flying the camel I will admit that the DR1 is a superior crate to all others in the arena as far as fast handling and toughness. As some will call it the noob plane. So they call the Spitfire in the MA. BUT....now that I have flown it, it is starting to grow on me. It is a great crate for the noobs and pros. Believe that the biggest complaint was that they should but couldn't keep up or handle the DR1. I disagree with that strongly. Knowing the plane is the key. What ever you do, don't get it on the deck with it slow against a DR1. A certain death you will experience. Don't get trapped into the circle of death. The DR1 hates barrel rolls however the F1 is waiting for them. Loops are easier to handle. Listen to the plane...it will tell you when you pushing a little to hard. Made hard dives and pulled out of them with wings remaining in place. I use alot of engine control during a fight. If I get in a hard turn to get a bead on a con I will cut engine on and off. It will make the tight turn plus keep all wings. Yes I am using the governor as all else is that I know of.

I don't know about the history of any of these planes other than what has been stating on the BB. These planes might not be historically correct and am not doubting the words of those that have taken there time and studied them. I commend those like SCTUSK and others that has this knowledge to share with us. I would like to see HT get the planes as close to original specs that they can and add a few more if possible. I'm sure the WW1 arena is kept on the back burner but in front of them.

All in all...I have gotten to enjoy flying all the planes except the F2B yet. Hope more will come in and try any of them. If your new..come over buffer and say it. I grant ya that help is just a question away.