Author Topic: p51 vs spit barrel roll defence move  (Read 1064 times)

Offline lulu

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p51 vs spit barrel roll defence move
« on: July 26, 2010, 05:02:08 PM »
Which differences there are, it they exist, between barrel roll defence move performed by spit or performed by p51 or f4ux?

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Offline SPKmes

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Re: p51 vs spit barrel roll defence move
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2010, 05:08:31 PM »
I believe it comes down to execution not plane....

Offline lulu

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Re: p51 vs spit barrel roll defence move
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2010, 05:30:14 PM »
Which execution differences? That's what i asked or try to ask too!
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Offline Blooz

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Re: p51 vs spit barrel roll defence move
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2010, 05:37:48 PM »
The Spit 8 and 16 have a good acceleration advantage over both the 51 and F4U. After the overshoot that would come in handy to regain lost speed quickly to get a shot on the others.
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Offline Sonicblu

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Re: p51 vs spit barrel roll defence move
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2010, 06:49:10 PM »
Lulu

Against what planes? I think you have to take into account what plane you are doing the maneuver against.

Example: I was in p40 and kappa in a spit something the other night. I got in behind him on my barrel roll but could not bring the nose up enough to get a shot. I never got in sync with his plane. He kept his plane more in the vertical. As I tried for the shot anyway I stalled in the vert and he clobbered me. Kappa is fast in his reaction. He just never made a mistake I could capitalize on.

In the f4u's I like to get slower with some flaps out if against a spit. The spit doesn't lose e as fast so it will stay out in front for a bit longer. I think but am not sure the if the spit is flown properly it can maintain a more compressed barrel roll for lack of a better explanation. But the F4us can fly slower with the flaps out. So the forward travel is less in the barrel roll causing most spit pilots to overshoot. With a good spit pilot he will use more of the vertical component of the barrel roll to get you out in front.

So I think I know what you are asking. If you are using it as a defense maneuver.

In the spit climb more aggressively in the up side of the barrel roll. Keeping your roll more on an incline. The barrel roll is only one part of the solution though. If you execute the roll properly you will be offensive. If the other guy rolls with you, you are now in a rolling scissors.  I like to roll one time looking back if the other plane is out of sync put your plane in the vertical barrel roll in the vert if you can keep your nose up longer you can now be in a offensive position.

The f4u will fly slower better so get its flaps out and try to only lose as much e as it take to get in behind/ cause and overshoot.


Offline lulu

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Re: p51 vs spit barrel roll defence move
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2010, 12:04:27 AM »
TY



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Offline Noah17

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Re: p51 vs spit barrel roll defence move
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2010, 08:06:48 AM »
Sonicblu,
I don't disagree with what you say F4U vs. Spit but, I have trouble executing it. That certainly could be my fault in poor execution.
What normally happens to me is that the rolling scissors develops and regardless of me getting my flaps out or leaving them in the Spit that gets me normally seems to have a much "wider" barrel to it's roll. It's not slowing down much in the process and if I then get my flaps out I lose out on the "E" state of the fight and get killed. He goes vertical and I'm left low and slow....

Perhaps I'm using too much flap....At least 2 notches.

I've had luck with the rolling scissor against planes that obviously don't turn as well as the F4U (51,190,p47,etc...) But  the TnB planes like Spits I just can't seem to work it.

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Offline Big Rat

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Re: p51 vs spit barrel roll defence move
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2010, 12:54:13 PM »
Noah17,

First off a lot depends on the spit you are dealing with, kinda like comparing a F4 109 vs a K4, different animals. Spit 14 easier to beat roling scissors then Spit 5 for example. I've been able to hang a spit V with some of my better students through a rolling scissors, when I see the rolling scissors coming and start bleeding speed early. The spits just takes a gentler touch then the F4U when slow.  The trick to killing spits with an F4U in a rolling scissors is do it quickly.  Kill them before they can lose enough speed and get into their own flaps.  the longer the fight goes the more it tends to go in the spits favor due to higher power to weight it can regain lost E much better.  You have two big assets to outslow a spit, flaps that deploy at 250 and a huge rudder, either will kill speed quickly.  The key here is to make sure the spit is commited tot he rolling scissors, if you drop all your E and he high yo yo's you are in deep doodoo :uhoh.  We can work on this if you want, just send me a PM and we can work out a time.

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Offline mtnman

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Re: p51 vs spit barrel roll defence move
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2010, 01:10:22 PM »
The amount of flap required varies, as does the management of the throttle.  There really isn't a simple "recipe" that will work all the time.

There are a couple of definite "guidelines" though.

P51, P47, F4U, etc, vs. Spit-

-convince the spit to go fast first.  The barrel roll defense is basically a means to get the guy behind you to get out in front of you (or at least get out from behind you).  This is easier if he is faster than you, and/or thinks he needs to go fast to stay with you or catch you.  If you're faster than him, the BRD is kind of pointless.  Just fly away and get some separation.  If he's the same speed as you, it can be difficult to achieve, at least in the learning stages.  An easy way to get him to go fast is to put your nose down slightly, and convince him you intend to run away.  He has to take this seriously, because if you can get your speed up he can't stay with you.  This means he needs to catch you and shoot you NOW.

-create some closure.  More is safer, less is dangerous, and it can be regulated as you master it to allow him to pass you by and then be "trapped" right in front of you for YOUR shot.  This is partially where the speed of the spit comes into play.  If he's catching you, he has closure.  Get him fast, so he can close on you.  This isn't so tough usually, because he'll have better acceleration than your P51, P47, F4U, etc...  Also, he WANTS to close on you, so he can shoot you.  But...  if you're diving/running, how do you create closure???  You do it by turning, so he can cut across the "corner" and/or approach you from the side, rather than from directly behind.  This is the part of the BRD I see most people screw up.  They try to go into a barrel roll without the initial turn to the side (or up, or down, or wherever, as long as he's no longer chasing your tail...).  Go right into a barrel roll, and if he's watching closely he'll just cut throttle, saddle up, and shoot you.  Turn first, so that's not an easy/good option for him.

-roll around his path.  Straighten out to let him approach guns range (D800- D600), and convince him to try for the shot.  Just as he's getting ready to squeeze the trigger, pull up, and roll away from him.  If he's coming at you from your right side, roll left.  This will allow him to pass under you canopy to canopy, and then squirt out in front of you.  If you've gotten him fast, and given him some closure, he won't be able to follow you through this turn/roll.  He has no choice but to pass you by.  Once he passes by, lots of things can happen.  If he's tried to turn/roll with you, he'll be slow and sitting right in front of you.  Or, he may still think he can pull this off, and try to turn with you.  That'll usually put you in a rolling scissors.  He may be a smart one though, and zoom up to maintain his E.  That one's dangerous.  Put your nose down a few degrees (avoid diving for the deck, as that leaves you out of options should he be able to catch you) and gently/smoothly turn away from him to start all over (you're back to the "convince him to go fast" part).  By turning away from him, you'll maximize the turn HE needs to do to get back onto your tail, and if the separation is far enough, it'll convince him to pull that turn harder, which eats away at his E-advantage.  Get him to do that 2-3 times, and he won't have that advantage anymore.

-KILL HIM QUICK.  Like, RIGHT NOW.  Once he's off your six, whether it's through the BRD, or the rolling scissors, you either need to kill him immediately, or extend and reset the fight.  Due to his excessive speed, and inability to scrub it off quickly, you'll enjoy an advantage in turn radius BRIEFLY.  Use it to kill him, or point your nose towards a safer place.  If you get into a prolonged turn fight with him, you'll lose that advantage, and he'll work his way around behind you and kill you.  Once again, it's about HIS speed, not just yours.  He doesn't turn so well while fast.  

-The flaps help you with that initial turn advantage, but again, the longer it drags out the less likely you are to survive.  2 notches or 5, it doesn't matter at that point.  They help you turn, but hurt your speed.  Use every bit of them that you need, but not a bit more.  Retract them when you don't need, them, instead of just letting them blow back up.

-throttle plays a part.  I like to back off to about 1/2 for about 1/2 second as I enter my initial turn.  Then WEP for the roll.  If it turns into a rolling scissors I'm generally raising and lowering my throttle with my nose (nose up, throttle up with WEP- nose down, throttle down).  As the scissors drags out, and flaps come down, I'll hit a point though where I stay WEPed for the remainder of the fight.

-the helix matters.  The radius of your rolls, as well as how close the rolls are matters a lot.  Envision a spring stretched out, vs. one that's not stretched.  The stretched out spring covers more distance forward, so that's NOT what you want to fly.  Larger radius rolls, with less forward progress is what you want.  Generally, that means lag pursuit, but to fine-tune it for the situation and the shot you'll need to switch between lag, pure, and lead pursuit throughout the maneuver.  This is regulating closure again.

-relative E-states.  The BRD plays into the disparity between your E-state and his (the spits).  Having less E is a disadvantage overall, but it does create some opportunities for you that aren't immediately available for him.  Use those things to your advantage, but quickly realize when the tables have turned.  You'll start out disadvantaged and needing to conserve E as much as possible, but that can quickly change following the BRD or rolling scissors.  Be careful not to get onto his six just to blow by HIM again...
MtnMan

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Offline Sonicblu

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Re: p51 vs spit barrel roll defence move
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2010, 05:33:18 PM »
I still have a hard time with what lag pursuit looks like in the barrel rolls.

Can some one help me with this? Maybe post a vid that I can look at.

I was fighting Kappa the other night in spit 9 and his barrel roll looked like it had a larger radius than I could do with mine. I know sometimes its just my perspective though. He also seemed to keep more e than me. Maybe he can chime in on what he is doing.


Offline Noah17

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Re: p51 vs spit barrel roll defence move
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2010, 06:03:33 AM »
Thanks Gentleman!

Mtnman, you shot me down early Saturday morning while you were flying a -4. I have to admit I was a bit bummed......Not because you shot me down but because it was so easy. I wasn't paying attention. You didn't need cool barrel roll or anything fancy to get me..... I thought damn I get killed by him and there isn't even anything I can learn from watching the film other than the fact that I did something stupid! LOL

BigRat.......Still meaning to get back to the TA for some help. The only evenings I've been able to fly for the most part are FSO. My Squad fly's Sundays and Wed at 8pm and I can't remember the last time I flew with them at those times. I'm usually offline by 6-7pm East Coast. Glad that you're still there and hope to see you soon.

I'm gonna need some help with my persuit curves as it relates to gunnery too. I realize that is an entirely different topic but......I did a BBS search using persuit curves and thought I'd come up with something but I think there was one thread.....I can't seem to line em up well without the nose of the F4U making me guess where I'm shooting. Then I pull too hard and lose E. That will happen a couple times and I'll have to exit the fight or get killed.

Thanks again!
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Offline Rolex

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Re: p51 vs spit barrel roll defence move
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2010, 06:44:02 AM »
I still have a hard time with what lag pursuit looks like in the barrel rolls.

Can some one help me with this? Maybe post a vid that I can look at.

Your goal is to fly a path that puts and holds your lift vector behind your opponent. For those reading this who do not know, you visualize your lift vector as coming straight out of the top of your head. Keep your view in the up position and fly from there, working to adjust the radius to fly the longer path at full power.