Combat trim question

[ImADot]

hehe Actually, how you're describing it has you still turning the same, but you just have less throw in the stick to achieve it.

Ding ding ding.  I think we have a winner!  You don't turn tighter, you just don't have to pull the stick back so far to get full elevator deflection.






...at least I think that's how it works.   

[FLS]

Mir I suspect that if you scale your stick then moving the trim also moves the scaling to a different degree of control surface deflection but I don't know if that's how it actually works. It would explain why people believe that trimming makes it easier to turn better even when their max turn rate doesn't change.

[Ack-Ack]

You're wrong.  I'm weak and can't yank my joystick all the way back, so elevator trim up lets me turn tighter because I don't have to pull my joystick back so far.      

 


ack-ack

[Zygote404]

How do you explain full back on the  stick in a turn with CT on not producing blackout and with positive rudder trim a return to blackout? Blackout = G force, Gforce = turn speed.

[prono]

How do you explain full back on the  stick in a turn with CT on not producing blackout and with positive rudder trim a return to blackout? Blackout = G force, Gforce = turn speed.

I think it's because game can't symulate stick stiffnes and block your joystick. It only limits "in game" control inputs. Adding trim virtually ( because you have alredy full back ) expands elevator authority ( like others said) and lets you turn faster.

Example: I'm trying to to lead shoot turning spitfire. With full stick back i can't. Then I add a little trim, screen starts to black out and im in lead. 

[Zygote404]

I think it's because game can't symulate stick stiffnes and block your joystick. It only limits "in game" control inputs. Adding trim virtually ( because you have alredy full back ) expands elevator authority ( like others said) and lets you turn faster.

Example: I'm trying to to lead shoot turning spitfire. With full stick back i can't. Then I add a little trim, screen starts to black out and im in lead. 

So the end result is, using trim in this situation, is gonna let me turn faster and get the kill rather then being killed. 

[BaldEagl]

So the end result is, using trim in this situation, is gonna let me turn faster and get the kill rather then being killed.  

The only time that would work is if you're going so fast that the elevators stiffen and won't delect all the way.  109's are particularily prone to this.  In that case in real life, trimmimg up will help alieviate the pressure on the stick and allow the pilot to deflect the elevators to the maximum. 

The trim tabs move in the opposite direction of the elevators and are small, thus realtively easier to move into the airstream.  As the tabs move down, they help raise the elevator.

In the game there's nothing to stop you from moving your stick to it's max deflection, thus, instead, AH simulates the effect by limiting the elevator deflection until you manually trim up, then the elevators can finally move their full range.

At anything other than these high speed situations in certain planes elevator trim does nothing to improve turn rate because the elevators can only move so far.

[uptown]

I find that the 38 will get "stuck" in the air at the top of a prolonged rope. If I think I might have to push it and get to 50 or below I will toggle it off so I get full control and can flip my 38 over with ease. For the most part I find I have better control with it off when I'm slow.

now is that alieron trim as well as elevator trim?

[uptown]

AkAk can you explain more about your use of trim controls?

[Zygote404]

I think you guys are right. 

Been doing some testing and found that I rarely if ever use full elevator while turn fighting.  What I do is pull back on the stick to the point pulling back would stall the wing and then I dial in elevator trim to fine tune it and turn a little faster.  I tried turning with full stick back and using trim and there was no noticeable difference.

[Lepape2]

I fly the P47 a lot and turn fight it at the first occasion. In this case, flaps are almost always in use and when my target tries to rope or extend in a straight line. The need for a steady shot while I'm retracting flaps with the plane wanting to nose up like crazy makes it imperative to have manual trim ON before the fight starts and then play with it accordingly. The plane noses up quite a lot naturally even without flaps when its under 14,000-15,000lbs.

I remember in the old Mossie that to turn fight it tighter at slow speeds, I had to elevator trim it all the way up to start hearing the stall buzzer... I don't have to do that anymore, thanks to its aerodynamic rework.

[FLS]

I think it's because game can't symulate stick stiffnes and block your joystick. It only limits "in game" control inputs. Adding trim virtually ( because you have alredy full back ) expands elevator authority ( like others said) and lets you turn faster.

Example: I'm trying to to lead shoot turning spitfire. With full stick back i can't. Then I add a little trim, screen starts to black out and im in lead. 

Prono trim does not increase deflection. Trim just changes the deflection of the centered stick. The max deflection remains the same.

[BaldEagl]

Prono trim does not increase deflection. Trim just changes the deflection of the centered stick. The max deflection remains the same.

No, he's right in this case.  AH cannot keep you from pulling your stick back all the way.  In a high speed dive as controls stiffen you can still pull the stick back all the way but, to simulate the control stiffness, the elevators won't deflect all the way, that is, until you apply manual trim, then the elevators will move to maximum deflection. 
Yes, max deflection is all there is but it's a concession in the game to simulate control stiffness.

As a trainer I'd expect you to understand the game mechanics.  If you don't believe me go dive a K4 from 10K and yank the stick back.  Then, as your about to lawn dart trim it up.

[Ack-Ack]

So the end result is, using trim in this situation, is gonna let me turn faster and get the kill rather then being killed. 

Don't listen to prono, he really doesn't know what he's speaking about.  Again, any thought that using elevator trim to make you turn tighter or faster is a myth that has been debunked already.  It will not give you an advantage over someone else and in fact, it will most likely place you in a disadvantage state.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

AkAk can you explain more about your use of trim controls?

Sure, elevator trim is set to 2 clicks below neutral point and it stays there for the entire time of my flight.  The only times I have to trim is if I get too fast in a dive and use elevator to trim out but that rarely happens.  Rudder and aileron trim aren't touched unless battle damage requires it to fly.

ack-ack