Author Topic: Radar + Strategy  (Read 4060 times)

Offline Jayhawk

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2010, 12:37:05 AM »
It was hard to justify a strat run before, now it's nearly impossible.  If you don't come into the radar at 30,000+ ft, you're going to have a heck of a time getting out of there. I've made the mistake since the new radar of assuming that that one little dot on the enemies screen would only bring up a few up to 25-30k.  Nope, each time is was 7+, yikes!

If this is how radar is going to stay, so be it, the community will adjust.  But please please fix the strat system already!
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2010, 02:03:02 AM »
A fair analog but the this line
Is a better interpretation then saying putting 2 groups back together. We really don't view things as 2 groups.

These same people that whined about the bases being 'snuck' by people 'avoiding fights' are going to whine next about maps that stick around for a week. There really is no winning against whiners.  :rolleyes:
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Offline oTRALFZo

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2010, 04:07:39 AM »
99.9999% of the guys that join in these horde missions think they are pioneers and have originated "strategy" by grouping 30+ guys to achieve a certain goal.

Go to base X with an overwhelming force, catch them by surprise and hope it works. Any kind of resistance and I can assure you that the same chesspiece general hero that planned that mission will not be coming back, but rather planning to use the same "strategy" on a different part of the map.

This is not strategy.  To me, its more exploiting. I can honestly say that the tactic is hated not by just furballers, but by 100% of the people that play. My question is why even take part of it if it generates such negativity?

Quite honestly, we can talk about the subject until our heads turn blue and it will never solve anything. The more the subject comes up and we get heated arguments, the more fuel I think is added to the fire only making things worse and gives the lemmings an excuse to keep doing what they are doing.
Only way in my mind to stop it is by giving them what they want until they just get bored of it and they move on to something else
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Offline Ghastly

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2010, 07:04:26 AM »
Quote
If anything the new radar has caused players to actually USE strategy now

WMLute, can you elaborate on this viewpoint?  Granted, I don't get a lot of time to fly but when I have, I haven't really seen strategy - what I've seen almost every time I sign in is a mammoth slug-fest at one field pair with each side working to bludgeon the other into submission by sheer weight of numbers and sheer "luck of the timing". 

Perhaps it's because you ( I believe, I could be wrong???) might fly more in the off hours while I fly at US Prime time that you see more strategy being employed, or am I incorrect in when you fly?

<S>
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Offline thndregg

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2010, 07:37:52 AM »
This quote from another thread:
Quote
The tendency of large groups to horde was deemed unhealthy and some thing needed to be done.
...and this quote from this thread:

WMLute, can you elaborate on this viewpoint?  Granted, I don't get a lot of time to fly but when I have, I haven't really seen strategy - what I've seen almost every time I sign in is a mammoth slug-fest at one field pair with each side working to bludgeon the other into submission by sheer weight of numbers and sheer "luck of the timing". 

...suggests the disparity still exsists.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2010, 09:50:43 AM »
A fair analog but the this line
Is a better interpretation then saying putting 2 groups back together. We really don't view things as 2 groups.

HiTech



Baaaa what would you know... your only the owner with access to piles of information that we never are privy to.  :P
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Offline SEseph

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2010, 10:28:35 AM »
This quote from another thread:...and this quote from this thread:

...suggests the disparity still exsists.

shhhh

As I was told in another thread, you're expecting common sense. If you can't see the numbers it's bad, if you can see the numbers increase.. time for new pants.

Numbers are numbers. If you can mount superior forces, use em to win even if your tactics can't survive without em (IE USSR during WWII with thier fall back tactic that gave ground any time the blitz broke the lines, yet allowed them to merged with the line behind, eventually making the line too thick to pierce. Or Stalin's theory once on the offense of just throwing people at the Germans) Oh and the US's theory was, besides having decent men, was to out produce, or.. wait for it... HORDE WITH EQUIPMENT! Bad WWII for proving hordes are good, bad bad. :aok
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Offline Vinkman

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2010, 10:47:04 AM »
Posted this another thread, but it fits so well here as well.....

There are two types of football players. Those that want to run up the middle, and those that want to play-action pass. Those that want to run up the middle pride themselves on physical ability, Blocking technique, and running ability. Those that want ot Play-action pass (fake the run up the middle and throw a pass to a wide open reciever) pride themselves on being smarter.

The MA is the same way. There are those that pride themselves on their ability to come across another pilot regarless of the plane matchups, E disparities, and number disparities and come out victorious...demonstrate thier skills as [cartoon] pilots.  There are those who want to pull off ever deeper and daring raids into enemy territory without being discovered...prove how smart they are.

The skill people are easy to satisfy. I think the issue is with the latter. The radar settings force everything to be a full frontal confrontation. But this doesn't eliminate strategy in the game, it transforms it from figuring out how to 'fake out' the other side, to organizing the proper resources and executing a well thought out plan to accomplish an objective. Which should be a great thing to do in a war sim.

The "fake out" guys are getting pissed because they can't do "fake out" base taking anymore, because with radar covering the whole map, bandits are drawn to you like moths to a flame.

Would changing the radar back really fix the problem? I say that's a matter of perception. The reason you could sneak a mission in the past is not because your plan is clever enough to have faked anyone out, it's because no one cares. It's not worth the time investment to fly around looking for a few planes that might be trying to capture a meaningless base. So the percieved cleverness of your part is nothing more than the result of it not being worth the enemies time to look for you.

It seems the choice has been made by the game developers to promote action per unit time for paying customers. Not hard to figure out why they made that choice.

Perhaps you can change your definition of being stategic, from faking the enemy out, to planning a raid that can capture a base with a handfull of very organized friends or squadies, knowing that the enemy will see you coming.  Just a suggestion 
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2010, 11:12:33 AM »
Posted this another thread, but it fits so well here as well.....

There are two types of football players. Those that want to run up the middle, and those that want to play-action pass. Those that want to run up the middle pride themselves on physical ability, Blocking technique, and running ability. Those that want ot Play-action pass (fake the run up the middle and throw a pass to a wide open reciever) pride themselves on being smarter.

The MA is the same way. There are those that pride themselves on their ability to come across another pilot regarless of the plane matchups, E disparities, and number disparities and come out victorious...demonstrate thier skills as [cartoon] pilots.  There are those who want to pull off ever deeper and daring raids into enemy territory without being discovered...prove how smart they are.

The skill people are easy to satisfy. I think the issue is with the latter. The radar settings force everything to be a full frontal confrontation. But this doesn't eliminate strategy in the game, it transforms it from figuring out how to 'fake out' the other side, to organizing the proper resources and executing a well thought out plan to accomplish an objective. Which should be a great thing to do in a war sim.

The "fake out" guys are getting pissed because they can't do "fake out" base taking anymore, because with radar covering the whole map, bandits are drawn to you like moths to a flame.

Would changing the radar back really fix the problem? I say that's a matter of perception. The reason you could sneak a mission in the past is not because your plan is clever enough to have faked anyone out, it's because no one cares. It's not worth the time investment to fly around looking for a few planes that might be trying to capture a meaningless base. So the percieved cleverness of your part is nothing more than the result of it not being worth the enemies time to look for you.

It seems the choice has been made by the game developers to promote action per unit time for paying customers. Not hard to figure out why they made that choice.

Perhaps you can change your definition of being stategic, from faking the enemy out, to planning a raid that can capture a base with a handfull of very organized friends or squadies, knowing that the enemy will see you coming.  Just a suggestion 


But if they are truely smarter..... why not just kill the dar and have planes keep it down.

... and who says going around is smarter anyway??   :lol
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Offline SEseph

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2010, 11:47:33 AM »
Posted this another thread, but it fits so well here as well.....

There are two types of football players. Those that want to run up the middle, and those that want to play-action pass. Those that want to run up the middle pride themselves on physical ability, Blocking technique, and running ability. Those that want ot Play-action pass (fake the run up the middle and throw a pass to a wide open reciever) pride themselves on being smarter.

The MA is the same way. There are those that pride themselves on their ability to come across another pilot regarless of the plane matchups, E disparities, and number disparities and come out victorious...demonstrate thier skills as [cartoon] pilots.  There are those who want to pull off ever deeper and daring raids into enemy territory without being discovered...prove how smart they are.

The skill people are easy to satisfy. I think the issue is with the latter. The radar settings force everything to be a full frontal confrontation. But this doesn't eliminate strategy in the game, it transforms it from figuring out how to 'fake out' the other side, to organizing the proper resources and executing a well thought out plan to accomplish an objective. Which should be a great thing to do in a war sim.

The "fake out" guys are getting pissed because they can't do "fake out" base taking anymore, because with radar covering the whole map, bandits are drawn to you like moths to a flame.

Would changing the radar back really fix the problem? I say that's a matter of perception. The reason you could sneak a mission in the past is not because your plan is clever enough to have faked anyone out, it's because no one cares. It's not worth the time investment to fly around looking for a few planes that might be trying to capture a meaningless base. So the percieved cleverness of your part is nothing more than the result of it not being worth the enemies time to look for you.

It seems the choice has been made by the game developers to promote action per unit time for paying customers. Not hard to figure out why they made that choice.

Perhaps you can change your definition of being stategic, from faking the enemy out, to planning a raid that can capture a base with a handfull of very organized friends or squadies, knowing that the enemy will see you coming.  Just a suggestion 


I love it!  :aok

But there are alot of sacks going on here with certain individuals. Thats group 3. You know, the group you wish would stop or just go away. :bolt:
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Offline Zygote404

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2010, 01:16:01 PM »
Developers come to realize that if they cater to the more casual player they get a lot more subscriptions because there are a lot more of them to be tapped.  The problem is that in most cases that requires compromises to the original game play and usually its a slap in the face to the players who propped up the game in its early days hence the whines. 

Non-casual players (like me) like strategy, sneaking bases, NOE runs, flying our favorite plane even if its not the latest, greatest, most dangerous plane. 

Casual players like new, better, faster, more dangerous things to fly, drive etc.  They like fast ways to get to combat, the all seeing dar and have less time to play then the non-casual.

As an example, I say on country channel a few days ago "had an awesome 10 minute fight with a 190, ended up both running outta fuel and rtb'ing to base".

Guy writes back "How is that awesome if ya didn't win??".

Its obvious that some people would rather have a 10 minute furball of chance and numbers in the latest plane and get a few kills / deaths then a 10 minute 1 on 1 with the possibility of no kill.  Each of those points of view is not less valid, just different and its stupid to insult someone for their alternate point of view.

Unfortunately the end result of more casuals vs non-casuals is games development must become like the rest of 21st century business, if you can sell 100 pieces of mass produced crap for 1000 dollars profit, thats better then selling 50 exquisitely crafted items for 500.

Offline bustr

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2010, 03:33:18 PM »
A Crapper, or Toilet invented by Thomas Crapper is just a tool. Its use and utilitarian value is in the perception of whom ever sits upon that throne. Crappers come in many sizes, qualities and technical intricasies. The Japanese have crappers smarter and more helpful than R2D2 with fans and tushy wipers. Crappers have been cast of pure gold and encrusted with jewels. But, in the end, when you need that tool, even a humble hole in a wooden board to support your twin lobed ego beats the heck out of filling your drawers with the Olde French crappe.

Just like the basic porcelin Fergusun of Al Bundy's fame. Aces High is a well designed tool that works exactly as intended via the imagination of the operator. If some operators cannot make it through the door with sufficient time to operate it correctly, why blame Fergusun for your cleaning bill?
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2010, 03:51:34 PM »
Just like the basic porcelin Fergusun of Al Bundy's fame. Aces High is a well designed tool that works exactly as intended via the imagination of the operator. If some operators cannot make it through the door with sufficient time to operate it correctly, why blame Fergusun for your cleaning bill?

Quoted for the "correctly" comment. Nice prose but a bit too flowery to be legitimate.

What you define as "correct" could be defined by another player as absolutely wrong. Case in point the whines about NOEs versus the whines about larger radars. In my view the game is exactly the same with no differences whatsoever because it doesnt change how I play the game at all. What I have noticed is there are even more people online recently that dont use the dar they have and I had come to the opinion that radar was changed because the FA crowd are not quite up to speed with AH but now because of this topic I have to change my opinion that it was due to whiners that cannot change their play style in order to adapt to crowds.
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Offline bustr

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2010, 05:56:35 PM »
Maybe you can prosaic Swahili then...

Tu kama porcelin msingi Fergusun ya sifa Al Bundy ya. Aces High ni chombo cha pamoja iliyoundwa kwamba kazi hasa kama lengo via mawazo ya flygbolaget. Kama baadhi ya operatörer hawezi kufanya hivyo kwa njia ya mlango na muda wa kutosha kufanya kazi kwa usahihi, kwa nini lawama Fergusun kwa yako kusafisha muswada?

Eh toi, the twin lobed fly paper works very well as a honey pot for American Standard chauvinists while reveiling a predudice to an intellectual rice bowl. Lets hope the rice was not fertilised with traditional night soil. Salmonella is no ones freind. But, then, I did not reduce this thread to the level of crappe. At least I've shown the crappe's how to make light comedy of intellectual potty refrences and not fertilise my rice with the same as a retort. Rose scented toilett watered elucidation with a hint of lemony entendre anyone?

But again. Many of the denizens on this board seem to enjoy throwing flavored fertilised rice whilst astride of their thrones. We owe Thomas Crapper such a debt for our intellectual comfort. Charmine plain or scented with the maxi absorbant layers......Rabbits, Bears and woods Oh My!

Chaelenge,

We are no longer taught the true meaning of prose. Many such as yourself use the word out of context as an insult and derisive dismisal of another author to communicate to the audience the idea that the author's context is immature, misplaced and of no consiquence. But, then I suspect you have no real experience with what prose means and sadly, it is your own very direct and common mode of communication by which you describe my structure while pontificating to these audiences in general. Since you don't impress me as being a pontifex or pontif or bishop in real life for some reason. I'm using the more supercilious meaning in our vernacular.

The English word 'prose' is derived from the Latin prōsa, which literally translates as 'straight-forward.' In the 21st century it is considered the common mode of written communication. It has been the common mode of communication since around the time of Bacon.

I'm using the "Balanced style" with satirical imagery combined by entendra illustrating with seemingly unconnected refrence points a view of an author's concept. No, not prose as direct and commonly dismissive as your own. "Here's Your Sign"! says Jeff........
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline E25280

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Re: Radar + Strategy
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2010, 06:20:35 PM »
Why do I keep seeing players post that there is no longer any "strategy" left in the MA's because of the Dar change?

What is wrong with having to actually FIGHT that enemy to get a capture?

If anything the new radar has caused players to actually USE strategy now.

Players that actually employ tactics and strategy have not really been negatively effective by the Dar change.


Just a guess, and this might not be accurate, but I get the impression that the players who thought they were using "strategy" by running NOE hordes to undefended base are probably players that also feel Aerial Combat is flying around face shooting every nme they find.

There is no more strategy in the NOE horde than there is ACM in face shooting.

NOE hordes and face shooting are tactics found on the lower end of the AH Learning Curve.

There is SO much more to the game that they have not yet discovered.

So they cry because the ezy mode tactics don't work as well anymore and cry because it now takes some time, practice, effort, and honest to gosh Strategy.
You start with the erroneous assumption that NOEs were only run by hordes.  Hordes will horde whether you see them coming or not.  They aren't really affected by all the changes.  In fact, my opinion is that he hordes are actually more intimidating precisely because you CAN see them coming, and who wants to be the lone upper against the incoming 30 cons?  Some of us still do, and we get slaughtered handily because there seem to be fewer of us than before, or perhaps the hordes are larger -- the effect is the same.

Where the "strategy" impact has been felt most is on the small squads.  If we have 4-6 players and want to capture a base, we are simply too small a force to take a base head on.  4 cons inbound on radar (even on old dar settings), and by the time you reach base there are 4-6 uppers.  This means you are instantly engaged, there is virtually no chance to hit the town unless you are flying buff formations at alt (which is not everyone's cup of tea).  So, instead we would run our 4 attack aircraft and one goon NOE, and do as much damage to the town as possible before the first defense arrived.  If the defenders trickled in one and two at a time, we had a chance to protect the goon (you know, by fighting the opposition) and get the capture.  If 4 upped more or less simultaneously, they usually get the goon (you know, by fighting their way around or through us) and then it is roughly 40 minutes of trying to keep the defenders engaged until someone else can somehow sneak a goon or M-3 in.  (You know, some of us call that a long, sustained fight -- started by an NOE raid -- imagine that.)

Well, NOE isn't very viable with the new radar settings if the terrain is at all varied.  So, if we are in the mood to capture a base, our options are 1) join another base-take attempt in progress (which you would probably call "join a horde"), 2) enlist other people's help through the mission planner (which you would probably call "create a horde"), 3) virtually doom ourselves to failure and the resulting frustration by trying to take a base on our own anyway.  None of these options are particularly satisfying when our original goal was to accomplish something as a team.

Having already experienced all the assorted and varied ways to shoot things down and blow stuff up, and having decided that small team exercises at accomplishing a goal was a good way for us to relax and enjoy ourselves . . . yes, the recent changes have hurt us.  Poo-poo it all you want, it's a fact.  No one's quit over it, and my hope is no one does, but several of us are certainly enjoying the game a lot less than before.
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