Japanese Profiles.

[lyric1]

Ki-61 production line. Looks like bare metal with the Hinomaru markings applied.

(Image removed from quote.)

[Greebo]

Now the best colour image I have of a solid colour is this one below.

In the image the remaining metal frame of the rudder is clearly bare metal.

So what is the underside of the fuselage?
Its clearly not the same as the bare metal frame of the rudder.



Looks like a light grey to me?

It could be light grey although another interpretation is that the darker colour is mud on the bottom of the fuselage. It looks like there is some mud covering the bottom of the white stripe too. The angle is right for some reflection from the earth patch on the ground too.

[lyric1]

Found some more photos of these parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjuU1DZ9m7I

http://dansa.minim.ne.jp/a4413-34-KakamigaharaMuseumHien.htm

http://ameblo.jp/satsukimasu-minamif/theme-10087040348.html

[lyric1]

Couple of new photos I found.
Already have other pictures of this one.

Couple more photos I found.
The Spinner looks to be divided in half with another colour.





Interesting 244th Sentai bird. Looks to have a light grey base on the entire fuselage & some camo blotches under the nose.

[Greebo]

Thanks Lyric1, these new photos are handy as the 19th Sentai aircraft is going to be the subject of my next skin. It's unusual to have such a wide selection of fairly good quality photos for an aircraft, let alone a Japanese one.

Looking through them I have spotted something about this aircraft which is unusual. The top two photos below are unique in that they show the RH fuselage (the bottom one is reversed and actually shows the LH fuselage like all the other photos). What I have noticed is the RH group tail marking appears to be lighter than the Hinomaru while the LH tail marking is the same shade. I am wondering if this was the group commander's aircraft and he had a yellow squadron marking on his RH tail and a red marking on the LH side. If the spinner was also two tone (red/yellow?) this would reinforce that. The number "0" on the tail and the twin fuselage bands also seems to point to a group commander's aircraft.

The other question I have been mulling over is grey or NMF underneath? The second of the photos in the above post shows the LH lower wing and one of the panels below the national marking is noticeably lighter than those surrounding it so I reckon its NMF. The lower rear fuselage is quite dark, but I reckon that is mud again.

[lyric1]

Thanks Lyric1, these new photos are handy as the 19th Sentai aircraft is going to be the subject of my next skin. It's unusual to have such a wide selection of fairly good quality photos for an aircraft, let alone a Japanese one.

Looking through them I have spotted something about this aircraft which is unusual. The top two photos below are unique in that they show the RH fuselage (the bottom one is reversed and actually shows the LH fuselage like all the other photos). What I have noticed is the RH group tail marking appears to be lighter than the Hinomaru while the LH tail marking is the same shade. I am wondering if this was the group commander's aircraft and he had a yellow squadron marking on his RH tail and a red marking on the LH side. If the spinner was also two tone (red/yellow?) this would reinforce that. The number "0" on the tail and the twin fuselage bands also seems to point to a group commander's aircraft.

The other question I have been mulling over is grey or NMF underneath? The second of the photos in the above post shows the LH lower wing and one of the panels below the national marking is noticeably lighter than those surrounding it so I reckon its NMF. The lower rear fuselage is quite dark, but I reckon that is mud again.

(Image removed from quote.)

Good catch on the reversed photo missed that. I had noticed the different shades with the tail squadron markings but just put it down to black & white photo anomaly. The spinner seems to tie it all & I think your correct with the two different squadron colours on the tail.

On the spinner its possible we have a third colour as well there is a thin band at the widest part of the cone.



So hard to tell what is bare metal & what is light grey

I think we can say with certainty that this flipped KI-61 its underside is bare metal on the wings. Not so certain about the fuselage though. It seems to be duller in appearance. Also looks to be overcast & even without the sun shining directly on the aircraft its clearly bare metal on the wings.




Now looking at the new photo I found last night the sun is catching a portion of the bomb rack & wheel cover its brighter than the rest of the underside of the aircraft. Yet even with the sun directly on those areas it still has not got the shiny reflective appearance of the flipped undersides of the wings of the KI-61 in the shade.

There is also another image of the underside of this aircraft in this thread.



It doesn't look shiny enough for bare metal.



Only thing I think we have is that the fuselage seems to be treated differently to the wings when it comes to a finish. Also looks that there is more going on with Japanese when it comes to painting aircraft that we know of at present.

Interestingly the most recent restoration of a KI-61 in a museum in Japan has gone with an all light grey base.

[Greebo]

The 19th Fighter Group had red, yellow and blue Squadron tail markings. So if we go with the idea of this being the Group CO's aircraft the spinner might be red, blue and yellow.

The only way you would see shiny highlights on the lower wings in these photos is if there was a light source on the ground further away than the aircraft. If this was a colour photo you might see a green/brown reflection from the ground but highlights need the angles to be right in order to show up. Also if the lower wing is painted, why is there a lighter panel running through the centre of the hinomaru?

BTW I think the overturned 88 aircraft is the same bare metal aircraft Devil is intending to skin, just with camouflage applied at a later date.

[Devil 505]

78th Sentai.

What can we figure about the rudder on this plane? Probably taken from another plane which was painted completely, I think.

[Devil 505]

BTW I think the overturned 88 aircraft is the same bare metal aircraft Devil is intending to skin, just with camouflage applied at a later date.

Very possible. I never even occurred to me that they could have been the same plane. 

[lyric1]

What can we figure about the rudder on this plane? Probably taken from another plane which was painted completely, I think.

Consensus seems to be the same.

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=10699.0

[lyric1]

Also if the lower wing is painted, why is there a lighter panel running through the centre of the hinomaru?

Good question especially when you look at the other underside view of this panel in the second image its not lighter at all.




Tried an experiment with the colour photo of the bare metal wing of a KI-61 in this thread.



Turned the saturation way up on the same image turning it essentially into a black and white photo.




I replicated exactly what we have in plane #0.

So I think we can say the wings on the under side are bare metal.

The underside of the fuselage on plane #0 though?

I did have another image of the flipped #88 and after looking at that close it looks to be all bare metal on the underside as well. The tail wheel area looks to be dirty with stains & so forth giving the impression in the other image that it was painted.



Looking at the still shot from the Youtube video of the Ki-61 with the blue stripe behind the cockpit. It looks to be slightly different to aircraft #0 though.



The bomb rack looks to be bare metal even the wheel covers have a metal appearance. The underside leading edge left of the yellow recognition edge is not metal though clearly a colour of some sort.  When you compare the bare metal leading edge from the colour photo below the underside demarcation line from above is not close to being the same in appearance.



When you look at the other colour photo we have of a solid painted KI-61 in particular the underside of the fuselage. I have to agree with Greebo it is dirty and stained but it seems to be a dirty version of the underside leading edge of the Youtube video KI-61.

Then when you look at the same area of the colour photo that is bare metal its obvious that its painted & not bare metal.





Turn the saturation all the way up again on the same three images.





Its actually hard to tell them apart.

[Krusty]

Guppy, look at the other photos of spinners and they closely match the color of the prop blades -- that darker green shade. Looking at the photo you pointed out, I do not think it is intentional or a 2-tone scheme. I think they over-painted the darker spinner with a lighter shade. I think this is that paint flaking or eroding off. There is damage on the airframe and it's possible that this would have been corrected before signing off on it to resume combat duties. However, I'd say it matches the shade under the nose exactly, and I'd say that's not BMF. There are a number of pictures and they apparently span different times after the airframe was captured. In one picture the wingtip nav light is intact and the gear door in place, and in another the light is smashed and the gear door is missing. Perhaps accidents moving the frame around, or perhaps happy soldiers venting war-time frustrations.

Overall it has none of the sheen that BMF has. It is almost certainly light grey.

[lyric1]

Nice colour film for reference purposes of a KI-84.

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675052875_wrecked-Japanese-planes_wrecked-bomber_wrecked-hangar_destroyed-airfield

[Greebo]

The demarcation on the spinner looks too regular to be paint flaking to me and the straight part looks to be exactly on the centreline of the gap between the blades. I think the reason it shows up better on this photo than the lower one is due to the angle of the sun which is lighting the front and near side of the plane. On the lower photo the sun is directly above. Also the prop has been rotated on the lower photo and its possible the yellow area is facing away from the camera.



I said you wouldn't much in the way of reflections on the underside of this aircraft due to sun being overhead. However there are two brighter patches reflected from the sunlit ground on the underside of the tailplane to either side of the soldier walking behind it. There are darker areas corresponding to the soldier's legs and the rudder. The elevators were painted grey so wouldn't reflect to the same degree. So I reckon it is definitely NMF.

[lyric1]

There are a number of pictures and they apparently span different times after the airframe was captured. In one picture the wingtip nav light is intact and the gear door in place, and in another the light is smashed and the gear door is missing. Perhaps accidents moving the frame around, or perhaps happy soldiers venting war-time frustrations.

This aircraft was dealt with by the Technical Air Intelligence Unit they tore it apart measured it & did the things they do when looking at features on enemy aircraft.

VMF-322 was the squadron at that field & they put the KI-61 back together & used it for a squadron hack. This one I don't think it was tore up much the Marines seemed to take very good care of it.
Here is what it looked like when they finished fixing it up.