Author Topic: Japanese Profiles.  (Read 58800 times)

Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #150 on: June 13, 2016, 12:49:48 PM »
Unknown Hien.

Great tail art of a Vulture grabbing the tail of another aircraft.









Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #151 on: June 14, 2016, 12:53:51 PM »
There was a colour video on Youtube of this aircraft but the link is broken now.
There was a couple of screenshots I found online of it.


55th Sentai.
The red squadron tail icon has bee applied over the former unit this aircraft belonged to & that was the 56th Sentai. The first profile shows the 56th logo in yellow the photo seems to show it in white.
The second profile I think is of another aircraft or it is simply wrong.









http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2009/09/jaaf-aircraft-on-okinawa-in-colour.html

Offline bustr

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #152 on: June 14, 2016, 01:17:45 PM »
In those color photos the green has a blue value opposed to the illustrations. Did the Japanese green paint pigment composition after some time in the sun react to the UV moving into the blue value? I've seen with some of your other posts and sites I've read at that the (poor?) composition of Japanese paint was reactive to UV after a short time in the field.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Krusty

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #153 on: June 14, 2016, 03:47:56 PM »
Color photography was in its infancy during WW2. Keep that in mind. Photography is a balance of exposures and stopping that exposure at a certain time limit. Not just once, but several times. You must expose the film to light, then stop before it is over or under exposed (which can change the tint and color and saturation of color film even on modern film stock). You then had to develop the film so that the areas which were hit by photons of light reacted. This involved hitting it with a chemical that made the pigments change, and at the appropriate time to stop it by rinsing that chemical away.

Improper stop baths and rinses could leave the active chemicals on the film and it could continue developing over long periods of time. This can explain some improperly-processed photos and film stock from the WW2 area where pixels "bleed" out of their original areas.

Then take those same subjective properties and time-based temperments and apply them to projecting light through the negative and onto the paper stock -- which is also light sensitive. The amount of light exposure through the film and onto the paper can change the tint, color, saturation, and contrast. Then again you must develop the paper (like film) and stop the development at the proper time -- or else it will continue to develop. Most times you see bleed-out on photograph details it's this stage (the printing) that wasn't stopped properly.

Back in WW2 they were still experimenting with chemicals to get the best most reliable development process. It was a wonderful breakthrough, but it was still in its infancy and it was not perfect. Photos could look a lot like the "real world source" or they could look nothing like it at all. Look at what simple post-processing can do to photos now -- can make them dull or bland and can make them look amazing and vibrant (even if the "real world source" was in fact dull and bland).

It is a very subjective art. There is a lot of interpretation that goes into even color photos. Like you said, what exact color is happening here? Is it like USAAF olive drab, which could weather darker or lighter depending on the environment? Or was it poor photo quality and limited reference materials available for comparison?


Even with ample photographic proof it took quite a bit of sleuthing to confirm some of the colors on my Bf109F 10/JG 2 skin.


So basically what I'm saying is you can get a general idea of things from a color ww2-era photo, but don't try to nit-pick every detail. Take it as a ballpark. If it looks blue? Well... maybe it is. Maybe it's just the 60+ years and poorly cared for and aging photos which aren't very representative. Take it all with a grain of salt and use other references (i.e. texts, spelling out paint chips, etc) to back up your decisions whenever possible.

Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #154 on: June 15, 2016, 01:01:21 AM »
244th Sentai.











For those of you who like their Hien dirty.










Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #155 on: June 15, 2016, 01:08:55 AM »
In those color photos the green has a blue value opposed to the illustrations. Did the Japanese green paint pigment composition after some time in the sun react to the UV moving into the blue value? I've seen with some of your other posts and sites I've read at that the (poor?) composition of Japanese paint was reactive to UV after a short time in the field.

There was also a green blue paint that was used a rudder of a Ki-84 still survives with this paint on it.

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=50057&page=2

Offline bustr

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #156 on: June 15, 2016, 02:41:16 PM »
Interesting color shift Mr. Herne did at your link, along with the explanation about different film types and the problems in determining color from using them in the wrong setting. Determining war time paint colors for Japanese aircraft seems more of an art then anything else.

So with our skins, do you go for the just paint dried color and work at weathering it 6-18 months of harsh exposure. Or do you go with the weathered color and work at making it look like the used car the photos depict?
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Krusty

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #157 on: June 15, 2016, 02:54:57 PM »
Get a wide sampling. Start with the technical color samples of the "pure" color. Then weather based on what you see in your samples and/or references. Tweak. Take a week off. Go back and look at it with fresh eyes. Review, tweak, repeat.

Offline Devil 505

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #158 on: June 15, 2016, 03:29:52 PM »
So with our skins, do you go for the just paint dried color and work at weathering it 6-18 months of harsh exposure. Or do you go with the weathered color and work at making it look like the used car the photos depict?

The answer for me is a bit of both. Since my base paint weathering is faded patterns of black and white, I select a color that is a reasonable representation of what was likely used on the real plane as it appeared in the field. This color is selected form many online sources from both the sim and plastic modelling communities. From there I fine tune the shade to fit the look that I want the skin to have. Then comes the weathering, first the fading and texturing, then the stains and dirt and grime.

Here is a general observation on the colors seen on many of the lesser skins in this game: the colors are oversaturated. Even if their color exactly matches a sample, it will look fake in the game because it does not factor in weathering or what modellers call "scale effect". While scale effect is used on plastic models to gray-shift colors to give the illusion of the model being full scale at a distance, a gray-shift on skins helps bring the entire color palette of a skin into harmony. Many of my early skins suffer from this issue, especially with the markings.
Kommando Nowotny

FlyKommando.com

Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #159 on: June 16, 2016, 12:35:44 AM »
68TH Sentai decals that came with a book I have.


Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #160 on: June 16, 2016, 01:26:14 AM »
There was a colour video on Youtube of this aircraft but the link is broken now.
There was a couple of screenshots I found online of it.


55th Sentai.
The red squadron tail icon has bee applied over the former unit this aircraft belonged to & that was the 56th Sentai. The first profile shows the 56th logo in yellow the photo seems to show it in white.
The second profile I think is of another aircraft or it is simply wrong.









http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2009/09/jaaf-aircraft-on-okinawa-in-colour.html

Found the film on Youtube Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ZkXPB1tg4

Also colour film of another Hien I have posted in here as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGlXFahoTrg

Tad off topic colour film KI-43.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uRyV3OrPWI

Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #161 on: June 17, 2016, 02:26:25 AM »
Another 5th drilling squadron.





Pretty close to running out of most published photos of Ki-61's with matching profiles there is actually very few photos to be had even in the Japanese magazines.
Lots of 244th Sentai left though.  :aok

Offline Greebo

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #162 on: June 17, 2016, 04:01:35 AM »
Thanks for all your efforts in this thread Lyric1, great research as always.

I know Devil and FTJR are working on templates for the Ki-61. Do you guys, or anyone else working on the Ki-61 have any particular aircraft from this thread that you are intending to skin? I'm busy working on something else at the moment. However I might be able to work on a Ki-61 skin in a few weeks but don't want to duplicate anything you intend to skin.

Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #163 on: June 17, 2016, 04:07:39 AM »

Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #164 on: June 17, 2016, 04:08:30 AM »
Thanks for all your efforts in this thread Lyric1, great research as always.



 :aok