Battle Stations : "Tiger Attack!" on the History channel

[Lusche]

Cept for those that manage to game the game as Nemisis discribes

You are wrong.

Go offline and try to kill a tiger at long ranges with both guns mentioned in that very quote, the American 75mm and the Soviet 76mm. You will see your rounds bouncing off again & again.

[R 105]

At the V-base 85 spawn is one of the few V-bases a GV can up and go into action right away. Tankers can spawn in from V-76 to the north and V-88 to the south. If you are coming in from V-88 to the V-85 spawn. You can drive up the hill and have a great view of the field of fire below. From the top of that hill to the spawn from V-76 the range is between 1600 meters to 2400 meters. So if you are on that hill in a Tiger then most the rds from the M-4/76 and the Panzer and even the T-34/85 should bounce off.

I have killed Tigers on that hill or damaged the turret from the V-76 spawn with one shot in the M-4/76 and the Panzer. I have been killed in a Tiger on that hill and in the spawn in a Tiger by the Panzer the M-4/76 and the T-34/85. So it should take another Tiger or a Firefly to kill a Tiger most times at that range. What am I missing ?

[Lusche]

I have killed Tigers on that hill or damaged the turret from the V-76 spawn with one shot in the M-4/76 and the Panzer. I have been killed in a Tiger on that hill and in the spawn in a Tiger by the Panzer the M-4/76 and the T-34/85. So it should take another Tiger or a Firefly to kill a Tiger most times at that range. What am I missing ?

Just to clarify both the M4A2(76)w as well as the T-34/85 have much bigger guns than the two mentioned in the quote DREDIOCK presented.


Not referring to you, but I notice a lot of confusion especially in ingame chat about the Sherman variants. A VC or a 76(w) kills a Tiger, and you can almost bet someone will quote some TV shows with the old "Sherman couldn't kill Tiger" myths, which mostly are referring to the ubiquitous standard 75mm variants. And almost nobody in the MA is taling the 75mm Sherman for pure tank combat for very obvious reasons.

[Soulyss]

One thing to keep in mind that I haven't seen pop up yet in this discussion (which it may have I only skimmed it) is the optics available to the crews manning these tanks.  

The Tiger was accurate at long range as much because of the optics used in the gun sight and crew training as anything you can directly attribute to the gun itself.  The German gun sight was superior to anything I've seen the U.S. field (I'm not familiar with the Soviet sights).  It allowed ranging to be done at much longer ranges than the US system.

According to this site
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm

The sight on the Tiger I was also capable of 2.5x magnification.

The commander ordered the target selection, type of ammunition, and range. The gunner observed the tracer and the strike of the round and reported his observations to the commander, who then ordered corrections. To quickly traverse onto a target, the Tiger I was outfitted with a hydraulic motor for the turret drive. The hydraulic drive traversed the turret at a maximum rate of 360 degrees in 60 seconds, dependent on the engine speed. Placing the target on the point of a triangle allowed the gunner to aim without obstructing the view of the target. The triangle height and separation distances in mils were used as an aid in estimating the range to the target, by comparing them with the size of the target. Tiger gunners knew the size of their targets from target tables and later, by practice, instinctively knew distances. The pattern in the right reticule also contained the 7 triangles plus adjustable range scales that allowed the gunner to register the exact range to the target. The gunner adjusted the range through this sight by lowering or raising the gun to set the aiming sight again on target. The range scale was graduated at 100 meter intervals out to a range of 3,000 meters for the APCR rounds, 4,000 meters for the APCBC rounds, and up to 6,000 meters for the HE rounds.

From April 1944 on, the monocular Turmzielfernröhr 9c (sighting telescope) replaced the binocular Turmzielfernröhr 9b.This sight allowed the gunner to select two magnifications, 2.5x and 5x. The lower magnification was intended for target acquisition, as it showed a wider field of view. The higher magnification allowed precise aiming at longer ranges. The range scale was graduated in the same way as the Turmzielfernröhr 9b sight - at 100 meters jumps up to 3,000 meters for APCR rounds, up to 4,000 meters for APCBC rounds, and up to 6,000 meters for HE rounds. Tiger platoons could open fire (concentrated platoon fire) for effect against stationary targets at up to 3,000 meters. When firing against moving targets, the rule was to open fire starting at 1,200 meters and up to 2,000 meters.

[Nosara]

The Tiger has become the Paper Tiger. It was once respected in the game. (feared)?  It has became the "Hunted". A waste of time to up. Concrete queen, Turret pop and tower. Grab a M4 a and kill it. 

[Lusche]

The Tiger has become the Paper Tiger. It was once respected in the game. (feared)? 

But back then we only had the Panzer IV, the T-34/76, and no 37mm Il-2s or B-25H's.
Thus, the only thing that could stop a Tiger when ords were down was another Tiger (or a Hurri D, but few could do it).

But now we have also the Sherman VC, the T-34/85, 17lbs on Vbases and the aforementioned planes... The Tiger hasn't become that much "paper".. he just has to compete against a lot more and more dangerous opponents. The combat environment has changed.

[choker41]

I upped Tiger lastnight and thank goodness I did.  I popped over a hill and found a sherman point blank in front of me. Two rounds hit me cause my turret was facing 45degrees from him.  My one shot killed him.  I went around a mound and found T-34/85 and at less than 200yds i received no damage and killed him.  Then Dr7 finally found my camping site and busted me with one shot moving at 1600 yds in M4.  Go figure huh.   

[Nemisis]

As I've said, there seems to be some leeway in armor penetration. Personally, I want to see that removed, since it isn't crucial to the game play.

The M4A3(75) cannot penetrate the frontal armor of the tiger. Even at point blank range, you CAN'T get a hit I think. T-34/76 is a bit better, but its still unlikely that you'll suffer anything worse than a damaged pintil gun unless you are incredibly unlucky or incredibly stupid.

As to the Panzer and M4A3(76)W, they both should only be able to penetrate the frontal armor of the tiger at around 1500yds. Again, I would like to have some of the tigers invincibility status restored.

[Lusche]

Again, I would like to have some of the tigers invincibility status restored.

Why? And how?

[Nemisis]

Because, its realistic. If the tiger's frontal armor couldn't have been by the KwK 40 L'48 at 1800yds, then we should have it so tigers armor can't be penetrated by the KwK 40 L'48 at 1800yds.

How? We get rid of that leeway in armor penetration. If your shot wouldn't have penetrated IRL, then it sucks to be you, because you just alerted him to your presence.

[Lusche]

Because, its realistic. If the tiger's frontal armor couldn't have been by the KwK 40 L'48 at 1800yds, then we should have it so tigers armor can't be penetrated by the KwK 40 L'48 at 1800yds.

Have you testet it? If not I'd suggest you take a Panzer and start shooting a Tiger frontally at 1.8K. I'm very interested in the results you get.

[715]

Let's suppose a Tiger is shelling a vehicle base from a ridge.  Let's suppose he's slightly over the ridge on the downslope so he can depress the gun enough.  Someone firing on him from long range at the base is going to cause the shell to sort of lob into the Tiger from above.  The frontal armor is extremely thick, but the top armor (on the chassis or the turret) is pretty thin, only 26 mm.  If the shell is lobbing down onto the 26 mm armor would that not penetrate and kill the Tiger?  Could not that be one mechanism for long range kills on Tigers?

I've done offline testing with the T34/85 vs the Tiger and with AP or HVAP it cannot penetrate the frontal armor of a Tiger at 1400 yds.  At 1200 yds the AP still bounces off.  The HVAP occasionally penetrates but doesn't kill the Tiger.  Same thing with the M4A3(76)W- AP always bounces off frontal armor of Tiger at 1400 yds no matter where I hit.

[Nemisis]

It was just an example lusche. I think it would help with all of the GV's. Oh sure, it will be harder to kill them, but you also live longer.

[Lusche]

It was just an example lusche. I think it would help with all of the GV's. Oh sure, it will be harder to kill them, but you also live longer.

You were repeatedly implying the KWK 40 has much better armor penetration here than in RL.

You are claiming there is currently "some leeway" in armor penetration. You said you would like to get the Tiger's status "restored" by getting the other tanks guns to more realistic values. So would you mind to tell me which guns are penetrating better in AH than they should?

[Nemisis]

I was implying nothing, I was using it as an example, as I previously stated. I personally feel the the Panzer's gun is about right.


The M4A3(76)'s gun, unless I have the thickness of the M4's armor once you factor in the slope wrong. A bit more than 100mm, right?