Author Topic: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion  (Read 12800 times)

Offline pipz

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Re: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion
« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2010, 06:25:13 PM »
If the Ki-100 had similar performance characteristics as the Ki-61, then why would production and development of the aircraft (Ki-100) continue, since there were other aircraft whose performance overall was superior, such as the Ki-84?

From what Ive read in the Schiffer Ki-61 book there were manufacturing issues with the HA40 and HA140 engines. There were a good number of Ki61 airframes laying around without engines. The Army told Kawasaki that they would adapt the new more reliable and available Mitsubishi Ha 112 engine to the Ki-61.
Sometimes aircraft are kept in service long after theyre prime simply because they are available. Retooling for a new aircraft may not be an option because of the pressures of the times.


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Offline pipz

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Re: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion
« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2010, 06:35:49 PM »
This is out of the same book

"The JAAF new fighter proved to be a substantial improvement over the Hien model it replaced.Although the top speed of the Ki100 was slightly lower than the ki61-II-Kai with about the same rated h.p. , the type 5 fighter weighed considerably less. This diference led to a better climb rate and much better maneuverability at higher altitudes where the earlier Hien had acted sluggishly"

Just for the record I would like to see it added to AH as well.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 06:40:24 PM by pipz »
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2010, 01:16:52 PM »
Reading all this stuff about the Ki-100, I wonder how it would stack up against the Ki-44? By roughly checking the the data, they seem to be pretty close in some aspects, while in others, the Ki-44 seems to beat the Ki-100 easily. Your opinions?

Well here's how I see it..

Based on the data I've seen, Ki-44 would have a pretty clear advantage in both climbrate/acceleration and speed especially at lower altitudes. Ki-44 has a very light powerloading. It would probably have the lightest powerloading of all prop fighters in AH, that doesn't always translate into the best climbrate due to possible lower prop efficiency. So the Ki-44 might not be the best climbing prop fighter but definately one of the best. Ki-100 on the other hand is probably somewhere slightly above the average power loading. The differences in turn radius would largely depend on the efficiency of the Ki-44's combat flaps, which are very similar to the ones found from Ki-84 (both are Nakajima products), and as we know, they are very effective in AH. Considering rather poor roll rates of the Ki-61 -family, I'm quite sure that the Ki-44 would roll faster.


If the Ki-100 had similar performance characteristics as the Ki-61, then why would production and development of the aircraft (Ki-100) continue, since there were other aircraft whose performance overall was superior, such as the Ki-84? I find it hard to believe that the Ki-61, which was outclassed by early late-war American fighters, could still be a viable platform? I ask this question arbitrarily, because like so many successful designs, improvements were made to the aircraft to allow them to retain their advantage, or at least keep pace.

So its my belief that the Ki-100 was superior in performance to the final production versions of the Ki-61. I do not see engine reliability as the sole reason the aircraft was kept in production and development. Of course, the bookworms will nay-say this, but until we can lay our hands on some performance data and comparative data against the Ki-61, its all speculation. Sadly, there are so many variables that we've failed to consider - such as the quality of the fuel and oil used, that even comparing apples to apples is subjective without having actual examples (in full combat trim) to compare and contrast.

It is true that production continued even after the already ready airframes meant for the Ha-140 (Ki-61-II) were converted, but still, that was the main reason why the Ki-100 was born to begin with. There were already produced airframes waiting for engines. Also, Nakajima and Kawasaki were separate firms with separate rescources, infastructure and logistics. They had already been producing their own products for years. Even if Japanese leadership would have ordered Kawasaki to start producing Ki-84 for example, retooling production lines to switch manufacturing from one fighter to a new type from different manufacture would have most probably created unbearable situation due to attrition and the overall situation the country was in. Well, actually the situation was basically unbearable already for Japan even without war economical suicide such as this. Also, there's enough data to conclude that, when working properly, Ki-84 was vastly superior to the Ki-100.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 01:27:25 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline OOZ662

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Re: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion
« Reply #63 on: October 17, 2010, 11:00:11 AM »
So that this wouldn't get too serious... :D
(Image removed from quote.)

Would be great if one of our Japanese friends could translate this. :D My guess is that it has something to do with the weight of the cooling system compared to the radial engined Ki-100. ...Or it's something about keeping both contents sufficiently cool enables them to work as intended. :rofl

Via "Moonspeaker" on Danbooru:
"The Ki-100, a Ki-61 with an air-cooled engine attached, was 330 kg lighter. Consider this figure to be the weight of the radiator—that is, 'off the rack.' The Ki-61 was a pitiable fighter craft.

When it takes off, tight turns are out of the question, even with momentum."

Oh hell. That's gonna start up a new pissing match.
A Rook who first flew 09/26/03 at the age of 13, has been a GL in 10+ Scenarios, and was two-time Points and First Annual 68KO Cup winner of the AH Extreme Air Racing League.

Offline SPKmes

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Re: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion
« Reply #64 on: October 17, 2010, 07:48:49 PM »
^^^ well from what I have found on the internets...the weight difference between to the 2 engines is only 45Kg

HA 40 = 590Kg....1320lbs
HA112 = 545Kg...1200lbs

These are apparent dry weights.....

Edit: typo in weight..
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 08:12:39 PM by SPKmes »

Offline JHerne

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Re: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion
« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2010, 10:41:35 PM »
This is true, but the additional reduction in overall weight comes from the radiator and required plumbing and fluids.

My offer still stands if anyone can read Kanjii and translate these pages.

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Offline OOZ662

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Re: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2010, 04:05:47 AM »
I can't read Japanese at all, but I could put up a request on the Danbooru forums. I don't think anyone there would want to (unless they were very into historical aviation) as they're used to translating one-liners and 4koma comics. As evidenced by the obscure "off the rack" bit above, translating Japanese>English is much more work than you think because you have to translate not only the words, but also the sayings, inflections, and second meanings of everything.
A Rook who first flew 09/26/03 at the age of 13, has been a GL in 10+ Scenarios, and was two-time Points and First Annual 68KO Cup winner of the AH Extreme Air Racing League.

Offline Scherf

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Re: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion
« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2010, 07:20:49 AM »
I can read most Japanese, entire pages though take more determination than I can muster. If there's bits and pieces such as "likely highlights" I might have a crack, but I'm trying to spend less time on the boards...
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline JHerne

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Re: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion
« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2010, 09:08:37 AM »
Well, I'll scan the pages, put 'em in a PDF and post them on my server. If you're interested, you can DL them and take it from there...
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Offline Scherf

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Re: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion
« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2010, 05:46:30 PM »
Wilco - did you post your server addy in the thread somewhere?
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Baumer

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Re: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion
« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2010, 10:30:48 PM »
Scherf, maybe you can take a crack at these pages? And see how the Japanese version, compares to the English version I posted previously (see reply #17).









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Offline Scherf

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Re: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion
« Reply #71 on: October 18, 2010, 10:59:43 PM »
Heya,

The first English-language snippet you posted is an accurate translation of the relevant bit of scan #2.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Scherf

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Re: Ki-61/Ki-100 discussion
« Reply #72 on: October 18, 2010, 11:05:12 PM »
Had a quick read of the first part of English scan #2 - it's also a perfectly good translation. I'm actually finding it easier to look at the english-language bit first, then the Japanese, as it's helping me to recognise the kanji combinations in the latter.

So, if you have translations for all the bits of the Japanese book I'd say you're good to go.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB