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Author Topic: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)  (Read 510 times)

Offline Harp00n

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Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« on: October 31, 2010, 10:12:02 AM »
Since the b29 and the Me410 are in the polls I read some infos about them. Something that catched my interest was the fact that they both have
"remote-controlled" defensive weapons/gunturrets installed. The Me410 for example had two remote-operated 13-mm-MG 131 installed firing backwards, the B29 had twelve(!) 12,7-mm-MG in remote-controlled gunmounts.

Does anybody know, how those turrets worked? Where they powered by electro-engines and how where they controlled? How would the remote operator actually target incoming fighters? There was probably no video-monitoring or something like that back in those days? Or was it just "spray & pray"?

Lots of questions...hope somebody has some facts or pics.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2010, 10:25:09 AM »
Quote from: Harp00n on October 31, 2010, 10:12:02 AM
Does anybody know, how those turrets worked? Where they powered by electro-engines and how where they controlled? How would the remote operator actually target incoming fighters?

The gunner had a gunsight and aimed the same way he would do if it was mounted on a gun. The sight was linked to the actual guns, which were driven by electric motors.
In other words: It's exactly what we do already have in AH, when all our turrets are shooting in the same direction.




An accurate description for those who can read German
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 10:32:40 AM by Lusche »
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2010, 12:17:47 PM »
Quote from: Lusche on October 31, 2010, 10:25:09 AM
The gunner had a gunsight and aimed the same way he would do if it was mounted on a gun. The sight was linked to the actual guns, which were driven by electric motors.
In other words: It's exactly what we do already have in AH, when all our turrets are shooting in the same direction.


(Image removed from quote.)

An accurate description for those who can read German
Almost the same, at least as I understand it for the B-29.  In AH the guns mounted on a bomber do not converge. Guessing the waist gun of a B-17 is about 20-25ft behind the top turret and the guns are firing directly to the side, the bullet streams will be traveling parallel to each other, separated by 20-25ft.

On the B-29, as I understand it, the gunner was supposed to enter the target's range and wingspan (and speed?) into the computer at which point the guns would converge on that range.
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Offline LLogann

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Re: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2010, 12:22:32 PM »
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Offline DEECONX

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Re: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2010, 12:22:50 PM »
Quote from: Harp00n on October 31, 2010, 10:12:02 AM
Since the b29 and the Me410 are in the polls I read some infos about them. Something that catched my interest was the fact that they both have
"remote-controlled" defensive weapons/gunturrets installed. The Me410 for example had two remote-operated 13-mm-MG 131 installed firing backwards, the B29 had twelve(!) 12,7-mm-MG in remote-controlled gunmounts.

Does anybody know, how those turrets worked? Where they powered by electro-engines and how where they controlled? How would the remote operator actually target incoming fighters? There was probably no video-monitoring or something like that back in those days? Or was it just "spray & pray"?

Lots of questions...hope somebody has some facts or pics.


Believe my A26 has them too!  :aok
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Offline 4deck

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Re: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2010, 12:44:25 PM »
I forgot but someone a long time ago found the hidden dot command
I believe that the bomber pilot used the .hose command take care of the
idiot on his six.
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Offline Yeager

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Re: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2010, 12:56:31 PM »
that illustration of the 410 shows what appears to be a simple system of linkages.  The B29 used an advanced computer to take all the guesswork out of aiming.  Many other facets of the B29 FCS (Fire Control System) were almost sci-fi for its day.  Cutting edge technology at the time.

http://www.twinbeech.com/CFCsystem.htm
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Offline Charge

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Re: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2010, 01:12:40 PM »
B-29: http://www.twinbeech.com/CFCsystem.htm

Four "sight" stations and three of those in the tail (excluding tail gunner) The top rear gunner assigns guns to side sight stations as needed. That system was actually computing system which could use several inputs to calculate the needed lead etc. for best results. However the system was too slow to calculate rapid closure rates as those of HO attack or later during Korea those of intercepting jets attacking from rear qts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nskFayhBcy0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h4yBxydz0E

ME410 system is not computing but direct control and it has three sights, one to be used when firing to the rear and the side sights to be used to fire on either side or below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zvkbIJWSRI

Rear guns 3:50

-C+
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Offline Yeager

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Re: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2010, 02:18:36 PM »
Quote from: Charge on October 31, 2010, 01:12:40 PM
Four "sight" stations and three of those in the tail (excluding tail gunner) The top rear gunner assigns guns to side sight stations as needed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nskFayhBcy0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h4yBxydz0E
These two videos are ESSENTIAL viewing for anyone interested in the B29 FCS  :salute
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Offline klingan

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Re: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2010, 04:09:24 PM »
" Take that Airbus "   :rofl
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Offline Beefcake

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Re: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2010, 04:26:48 PM »
Quote from: Charge on October 31, 2010, 01:12:40 PM
B-29: http://www.twinbeech.com/CFCsystem.htm

Four "sight" stations and three of those in the tail (excluding tail gunner) The top rear gunner assigns guns to side sight stations as needed. That system was actually computing system which could use several inputs to calculate the needed lead etc. for best results. However the system was too slow to calculate rapid closure rates as those of HO attack or later during Korea those of intercepting jets attacking from rear qts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nskFayhBcy0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h4yBxydz0E

ME410 system is not computing but direct control and it has three sights, one to be used when firing to the rear and the side sights to be used to fire on either side or below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zvkbIJWSRI

Rear guns 3:50

-C+


Watching the B29 gunsight video was amazing! I cannot believe how advanced that gun system was for it's time! The guns actually had auto-leading....that is incredible.
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Offline Harp00n

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Re: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2010, 06:59:26 AM »
Thats some cools vids on youtube. Guess the whine will get incredible if HT brings in those targetting computers which will compute the correct lead on moving targets for the gunners  :D
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Offline Yeager

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Re: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2010, 03:36:13 PM »
In order for HT to take advantage of the system he would need to allow the gunsight user to dial in a preset wingspan based on target ID and then allow the gunsight user to scale the reticle circle up or down to keep the target wingspan  at the diameter of the reticle circle.  The gunsight operator would then need to allow for a continued tracking of 10 seconds (more or less) for the computer to work.  That would be a kick in the pants if HT could pull it off.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 03:37:44 PM by Yeager »
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Offline SectorNine50

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Re: Question to AH-plane nerds & anyone else who might know ;)
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2010, 03:40:41 PM »
Quote from: Yeager on November 01, 2010, 03:36:13 PM
In order for HT to take advantage of the system he would need to allow the gunsight user to dial in a preset wingspan based on target ID and then allow the gunsight user to scale the reticle circle up or down to keep the target wingspan  at the diameter of the reticle circle.  The gunsight operator would then need to allow for a continued tracking of 10 seconds (more or less) for the computer to work.  That would be a kick in the pants if HT could pull it off.

And if they did this, people would then ask for gyro-leading gunsights like the K14...
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