Author Topic: i almost hate to do this....  (Read 1707 times)

Offline CAP1

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2010, 04:55:17 PM »
even as a non-expert, I read taht whol article as a line of crap.  I guess people are just lazy about doing real historical work.

yea i know.......but i figured/hoped it could ignite a good fun conversation.
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Offline Seadog36

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2010, 05:06:30 PM »
but i will anyway.

was looking for comparisons of the p-38 to the p-47, and thanks to google i found the following......


Why would u do that  :lol

Offline CAP1

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2010, 05:07:16 PM »
Why would u do that  :lol

oohh....i dunno?   :noid :D
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Offline LLogann

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2010, 05:19:58 PM »
never happen here.... Somebody with too many posts will troll it and make it an angry thread....................... ...........   :D

yea i know.......but i figured/hoped it could ignite a good fun conversation.
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Offline Flench

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2010, 05:20:55 PM »
There can be a maximum of 15 skins per plane. The P-51D is very full.
Why just 15 ?
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Offline Yossarian

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2010, 05:50:42 PM »
Why just 15 ?

Probably because 2^4=16, and 15+default skin=16 total.
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Offline JHerne

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2010, 06:00:41 PM »
built by the Brits ....merlin   ...says it all

Its an engine, not an airframe. Don't be takin' credit for the P-51. Put an Allison engine in the Spitfire and you have an average airframe.

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Offline JimmyC

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2010, 06:17:42 PM »
why would they
but a merlin saved it from the knackers yard

its da truth
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Offline Seadog36

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2010, 06:48:33 PM »
but i will anyway.

was looking for comparisons of the p-38 to the p-47, and thanks to google i found the following......

P-51 Mustang vs. P-38 Lightning?
Both planes changed the course of the war but you never hear stories about p-38's being used anywhere except the pacific and vice versa for p-51's in europe. What is the reason one plane was only used in one theatre and not the other?

    * 3 years ago


and the best selected answer was.....

Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
They didn't change the course of the war on the western front, but the P51 did contribute hugely to the destruction of the Luftwfaffe, both because there were so many of them and because it was an extremely good plane, especially the D.

P-38 were used on the western front, mostly in the Mediterranean area, the plane had structural problems that made it not really suited to the western front, though its firepower was deadly. It was however successfully in the Pacific theater, where it proved ideally suited with its long range and high altitude performance. It could not out-maneuver most Japanese fighters but it was faster and had a firepower that made mincemeat out of the lightly armoured Japanese planes.
The P51 was used mostly on the western front because that's where there was a great need for lots and lots of fighters to escort the bombers and replace the shorter legged P38 and P47, bringing down the losses among the US bomber flights and allowing them to go deeper in Germany. The first delivery of P51 on the Pacific front wasn't done until end 1944.

Amusing notes on those two planes, both names (Lightning and Mustang) came from the British who used the planes in real fights before the US did and gave them those names. They stuck.
The P51 was a British designed plane and nearly didn't go into production because, well, it was designed by Brits, not by Americans.


so......i thought the lightning was the first fighter to take the heavy bombers all the way to berlin and back? and i thought that even the p-47 with tanks made that trip before the mustang came along?

 so lets get some of the history buffs in here......... :aok

one of the other things i had always thought(perhaps incorrectly) was that the "P" stood for "pursuit", meaning that its actual intended usage was to chase down enemy bombers, and destroy em....or if on escort duty, then to basically protect the friendly bombers by chasing away the enemy fighters, whereas the "F" designated fighters were more intended to fight it out with the enemy?

P does stand for Pursuit, the F wasn't adopted until after the war when former USAAF planes became USAF F-51, F-47 etc. by Korea. Apparently the Navy adopted the F designation earlier.

The early ground attack versions of the mustang were the North American A-36s with the allison engine and dive brakes fitted~wiki it

Here is a good chart indicating escort ranges for allied fighters. Note that the P-47 with drop tank is for pre D-15 models with a single center line drop tank and less internal fuel. By 1944 wing hard points had been fitted to allow for up to 3 drop tanks, internal fuel increased, and obviously after Normandy 9th AF 47's were some of the first squadrons to be based in France advancing rapidly with the front lines as soon as new airfields were built or captured. Range became less and less of a factor. Read hell Hawks by Bob Dorr. Late model D's had the range to go deep into Germany on escort missions but by that time only the 56th FG was still flying 47's in that roll out of England.



Most 8th AF fter groups were converted to "spam cans" P-51s which came on line in huge numbers from N Americans plants in CA and TX. They stopped building B-25s to produce more 51's.  By that time though the Luftwaffe had been beat down on the Eastern front and had lost many of their best pilots to 47s and bomber defensive gunners. 51's came in arguable after air supremacy had been achieved by predominant by 47's to steal the show. 8th AF raids on synthetic fuel, Russian advances on eastern fuel supplies and 9th AF 47s jabo raids on transportation deprived the Luftwaffe and the rest of the war industry of critical fuel. Read Masters of the Air for 8th AF strategic bombing results. 47's were flying escort out of Italy/Corsica as well during the same period.

A fighter pilot once said you had your picture taken for your girl in a P-51, If you wanted to get back home alive you flew a P-47.
 

Offline Seadog36

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2010, 07:14:18 PM »
but i will anyway.

was looking for comparisons of the p-38 to the p-47

Here is one: how Neel Kearby whooped a 38 in a mock dogfight :D

Neel Kearby hopped down from the wing of his new P-47 Thunderbolt to exchange handshakes with  a slightly-humbled P-38 group commander.

"Congratulations Kearby," Colonel Prentice announced good naturedly.  "You shot me down in flames more than once."  Then, looking around at the group of fellow pilots who had witnessed the mock-combat over Amberley he announced, "I still think the P-38 is the best fighter we've got, but boys, don't sell the 'Jug' short!"

http://www.homeofheroes.com/wings/part2/11_kearby.html

Offline Oldman731

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2010, 08:59:02 PM »
was looking for comparisons of the p-38 to the p-47

Must not get drawn into this.  Think of something else....

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Offline Guppy35

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2010, 11:17:09 PM »
Must not get drawn into this.  Think of something else....

- oldman

Agreed :)

A lot more to the 38 in the ETO bit including rivalries between factions in the USAAF.  Sad part is the bomber crews paid for this as the 38s were sent to the MTO when they could have gone the distance with the bombers a lot earlier then they did.

That the Jug was sent to the ETO unable to carry a DT says a lot about which guys in the USAAF had the power at the time and it wasn't the fighter guys.  Again a lot of bomber crews died before the bomber purists realized they couldn't do it without fighter escort.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2010, 11:31:17 PM »
Agreed :)

A lot more to the 38 in the ETO bit including rivalries between factions in the USAAF.  Sad part is the bomber crews paid for this as the 38s were sent to the MTO when they could have gone the distance with the bombers a lot earlier then they did.

That the Jug was sent to the ETO unable to carry a DT says a lot about which guys in the USAAF had the power at the time and it wasn't the fighter guys.  Again a lot of bomber crews died before the bomber purists realized they couldn't do it without fighter escort.

wait?  there was politics involved in this too? and i'm not trying to be sarcastic.......but that's what it sounds like.....
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Offline MajWoody

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2010, 12:27:17 AM »
If you go to the 51 site...check out the engine start-up sounds for the 51, 47 and B-17....holy cow.  Ranger needs to get his hands on that!

Changeup

+1 :aok
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Offline EskimoJoe

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Re: i almost hate to do this....
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2010, 12:46:11 AM »
even as a non-expert, I read taht whol article as a line of crap.  I guess people are just lazy about doing real historical work.

I wouldn't use lazy in particular, more of a 'I already know everything there is to know about everything that ever happened in WWII and I know every minute detail about every particular notable aircraft of the war too', kind of thing. Phew, that was a mouthful!
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