Author Topic: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings  (Read 15410 times)

Offline Karnak

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2010, 09:30:24 AM »
Once again, the British were aware of the deficiencies of the .303.  However, they were also aware that against large aircraft, as they expected to be facing for an extended time, the .50 was also insufficient.  That is why they were focusing on the 20mm as the next step for British aircraft.  It is a much more reasonable and realistic discussion to ask why they weren't able to get at least some Hispano armed, Merlin powered, fighters into the mix.  Imagining what a Merlin powered Whirlwind would have done to Heinkels and Junkers bombers makes any thought of a quad .50 armed Hurricane or Spitfire pale in comparison.  Instead the British had wasted thousands of Merlins on Battles and Defiants forcing the Whirlwind to try to use the unreliable Peregrines.
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Offline B3YT

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2010, 10:28:41 AM »
8 .303 can surly get more led down range than 4 .50 cal ? most air combat  firing ranges were less than 300yrds where the difference between the .303 and .50 are not that huge.
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Offline SCTusk

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2010, 09:52:27 PM »
My main theme in the OP was the unexpected (at least for me) difference between the .303 and the .50, I fell into the trap of linear comparison whereas the callibre is a linear measurement of a three dimensional object, or two actually, the projectile and the cartridge. With both being considerably larger in terms of mass and volume in the case of the .50 cal (not merely 20% larger as the linear measurement might suggest) it's no wonder they pack such a punch, or conversely, if you take the author's point (and he flew and fought in the Battle of Britain) the .303's were in many cases ineffective.

As for the outcome of the battle had the Brit fighters been equipped with .50's (had that been possible) I guess it would depend on a review of statistics, e.g. if 50% of the intercepts by the RAF resulted in ineffective but accurate strikes on Luftwaffe a/c, it would be fair to presume that .50 cals might conceivably have doubled the RAF kill tally, unless there was some argument as to why the .50's would have also been ineffective. The author flew his share of sorties, had the opportunity to talk with other pilots at the time (and after the battle) and has come to the conclusion that indeed the provision of .50 cals in the Spit's and Hurricanes would have significantly shortened the battle in favour of the RAF.

There are many other factors brought to light in his book, most of which he uses to support his own personal view that gross mismanagement at the Air Staff level both before and during the battle needlessly cost the RAF hundreds of lives and put the country at risk. One of his more important criticisms (in my view) is the failure to mount a spoiling attack on the gathering Luftwaffe across the channel, and I think it is a fair point. Suprise attacks on newly occupied airfields would have almost certainly cost the Luftwaffe dearly not only in terms of a/c and personel but also important infrastructure. This same tactic was used against the RAF with great success, and but for the switch to the bombing of cities the battle might easily have gone the other way.

Add to this the need for more and better training in gunnery for fighter pilots (which could easily have been provided) better combat tactics (which could easily have been copied from the Luftwaffe as far back as the Spanish Civil War) more use of experienced Battle and Blenheim pilots as replacements instead of using pilots straight out of training units, repositioning of the Spitfire and Hurricane squadrons in the north of the country to the south (replacing them with Blenheims etc which were basically left to rot on southern airfields, taking up valuable space and resources) and the list goes on, much of it difficult to fault. All of his arguments rest on well tested doctrines of warfare, but no doubt there are opposing views worth investigating.

Anyway, a cracking good read and I highly recommend it.
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Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2010, 08:24:21 PM »
My guess is , from R-L: .22    .223(as stated)   7.62x39    .30-06, or .308     300win mag??      .50

NOT

2nd from left is a 338 Win Mag(Slightly large dia than the 7.62 NATO(308Win). I believe your others are accurate.  :salute
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Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2010, 08:46:28 PM »
2nd from left is a 338 Win Mag(Slightly large dia. than the 7.62 NATO(308Win). I believe your others are accurate.  :salute
Greater mass(weight) with a closely equal co-efficiency of drag equals greater sustained down range velocity even if muzzle velocity is similar or as in the 30 calibers vs 50 calibers, slightly higher muzzle velocity with a lighter bullet. We see this highly exaggerated with the .17 HMR's 20 grain bullet and 22-250's 65 grain vs 30+ caliber 150 to 180 gr slug hunting rounds. @50-75 yds & no wind that little .17 is hell on "Whistle Pigs" but out to 125-150 that light bullet drops drastically and has little energy to knock a dirt clod over and kill the "Squeaker"(Ground Squirrel).  The 30 cal will go through the dirt clod, a 1" branch, & still kill the "Squeaker".  If you shoot an elk with that .17, he'll think a mosquito bit him(sarcasm intended), but that 180 gr 30 cal will break bones & explode vital organs/brains. No surprises hear really. The .50 cal browning is still used today in heavy armored personnel carriers, and the Barret M82 Semi Auto/M107 Bolt type rifles with accurate kills > 1 mile. Some firearms experts say the .50 caliber browning in a modern designed projectile is in a "Sweet-Spot" where ballistic co-efficiencies are nearly perfect. Oh, did I say I love guns?  :D No argument intended to be started here, just IMO.

http://www.military.com/pics/SoldierTech_AS50-1.jpg
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Offline Angus

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2010, 02:56:26 AM »
They were testing the 20 mil in the BoB, - one Hurricane was armed with 4 Hizoos, and I belive a Spitfire squadron (At Rochford?) was armed with the later layout of 4x .303 and 2x 20mm.
A year later you are looking at the Hurricane II and SpitV with that layout as a standard.
I pilot I knew flow both P51C's (4x50 cal) and Spit V's, - his opinion stepping from the Spit into the P-51 was that it was a downstep in firepower.
His squadmate had the outboard .303's removed from his SpitV. In a "Stuka Party" one of his Hispanos jammed,- it did not however stop him from peppering down a Stuka with only 2 x .303. It was later in the war and the ammo was better. Much of BoB ammo was surplus ball rounds, and squadron leaders almost had a brawl when the DeWilde first came around. Now, the quantity of available .303 rounds as well as the guns being quite reliable may also added to the air ministries decision.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2010, 03:09:10 AM »
Didn't Dowding also dictate that fighters should open up at long ranges when attacking the bomber formations and basically keep the trigger pressed when making the pass?  That's why I have a tough time using the BoB as an example of how the .303 wasn't sufficient enough.  There are other variables that can be factored in that make the .303 appear as though it was an obsolete weapon and ineffective during the BoB.

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Offline SCTusk

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2010, 03:53:11 AM »
Didn't Dowding also dictate that fighters should open up at long ranges when attacking the bomber formations (?)
ack-ack

That's mentioned in the book ack, one of many self imposed tactical issues the RAF was struggling with during the battle. The following RAF pilot 'kill' figures are taken from the book mentioned in the OP, and refer to the percentage of pilots from the total number involved in the battle in reference to 'whole' kill claims (the author ignores the 'half' claims due to the fact that multiple 'half' claims could be awarded for the destruction of a single aircraft) :

Pilots with single 'whole' kill -  15%
Pilots with two 'whole' kills - 12%
Pilots with four 'whole' kills -  7%

Additionally, only 17 pilots could claim more than ten kills - 10 British, 2 New Zealanders, 1 Australian, 1 Canadian, 1 South African, 1 Pole and 1 Czech. As far as I can tell, these more successful pilots were all known either for their excellent marksmanship or their habit of closing to very close range before firing.

I think what the author intended is to illuminate the generally poor performance of the average RAF pilot during the battle (in the most respectable terms - basically suggesting they were 'lambs to the slaughter' through no fault of their own) and one of the elements where improvements could have been made was the selection of armament. He suggests that the .50 cals would have brought down many more enemy aircraft due to the greater range and hitting power, as most of the RAF pilots could only manage a snap shot with a small sprinkling of hits. It seems a fair point, although it could be argued that more/better gunnery training and sensible tactics might have made an even greater difference.

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Offline nrshida

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2010, 05:12:27 AM »
I understood that Douglas Bader always preferred the bank of eight 0.303s and claimed they were more effective against fighters, especially at the more usual closer range. I thought I read somewhere that the early war R.A.F. philosophy was to attack the enemy aircrew, but I can't find where I read that now, not in 'Bag the Hun'.  :frown:

There is an excellent article regarding this issue on Anthony G Williams' website:- http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm

It also covers 0.50 cals as well as 0.303 and 20-mm.

For AH fighting I find the eight machine guns a lot more challenging & rewarding to use than Hispanos, but it seems often the case that the most interesting armament is fitted to the less interesting aircraft, and vice versa.

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Offline Avanti

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2010, 05:48:00 AM »
He's talking about the US .50cal M2, right? Does he not realize that was ALSO a Browning?

correct me if i'm wrong, the UK and US version of the .50 cal are the same

Avanti


Offline SCTusk

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2010, 06:22:05 AM »
There is an excellent article regarding this issue on Anthony G Williams' website:- http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm

Thanks for that link nrshida, an interesting read  :)

correct me if i'm wrong, the UK and US version of the .50 cal are the same

Avanti



I think this is one of those common language things where the .303 Brownings were referred to simply as 'Brownings' so that the .50's lost the manufacturer's name in general reference. I'd imagine that any manufactured in Britain would have been made under license, doubtful that they'd modify something that already worked so well.
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Offline Charge

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2010, 06:23:53 AM »
Well the fact is that not many pilots are capable of making long range shots or leading properly even at slight angle differences so it is best to get close if speed difference and weakness of defensive armament allow, and many of the British pilots were very inexperienced as they were pressed to service with very little training. So Bader was right in many ways, but only in that strategic situation.

When the Brits started operating e.g. over France the armament needed to be heavily destructive as any slightly damaged German plane lost over France could be salvaged and pilots would return to duty right away. Also the pilots were veterans at that stage and had experience in aircombat gunnery and could use cannon armament from longer ranges more efficiently.

50Cal is, in a way, a jack of all trades in this sense as it could fit both strategic uses without outright excelling in either.

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Offline nrshida

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2010, 06:33:24 AM »
loll @ Charge's signature.

Well, after thinking about all those lovely 303s firing in parallel I couldn't resist:-

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,300308.0.html
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Offline bustr

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2010, 12:39:28 PM »
When I was in highschool (*I am not a Criminal was heard at that time.*) I read a book about the creation of the Hurricane. In it was a memorable part where Sydney Camm had to convince the Air Ministry to the usefulness of 8 .303 as the aircrafts armement. I think they thought 4 was 2 too many. So they rolled it out to a firing range and piled up a number of surplus wings and open fired.

This being in the late 1930's you can imagine what kinds of wings from the era they were. Anyway the wings got shredded better than Camm and company envisioned on paper. This test was a real world first for them along with the Ministry. The Ministry was impressed and supposedly 8 .303 were indelably stamped into the Air Ministrys brains from that point on as the bleeding edge of air to air armament.

Unlike later in that war and up to today, in the 1930's no one was going to give up a front line aircraft's monitary investment to a gunnery test. If they had rolled out a blenhiem, spit and a Hurri 500-400 yards away and opened fire for a few seconds. The 50cal may have been the gun of choice in the BoB.

We and the author are second guessing the BoB and it's methodoligies with the comfortable benifit of being almost a century removed. Granted he was there and his observations by trial of fire became reality into the rest of the war. At the time they did what they had to with what they had. The best two wheapons they brought to the table was making do with what they had brilliently and learning from thier mistakes.
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Offline SCTusk

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Re: Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2010, 07:30:01 PM »
At the time they did what they had to with what they had. The best two wheapons they brought to the table was making do with what they had brilliently and learning from thier mistakes.

I'm not convinced. If you pay someone to do a job, confer Knighthoods and other privileges on them and add their names to the pages of history, you should at least expect that they would make reasonable decisions in the course of their duty. People died. Lots of 'em, and good ones too. Imagine if it cost you $14.95 per life in AH. Imagine the frustration of fighting your way through an overwhelming fighter screen to open fire on a Ju88 from 400 yards (because that's what you were told was best) and all you got for several 2 second poorly aimed bursts (you've had no effective gunnery training yet) was a slight trail of glycol from one of the engines and a sudden fire in your cockpit and a mortal wound as the 109's finally caught up with you. Would you pay $14.95 for that?

Now imagine it was real. I can only think that some of those guys must have died weeping with frustration, considering that what they were attempting was the protection of their families, friends and homeland from an aggressive and ruthless attack by a horde of well armed, well trained and seriously clever thugs. It does seem to me at least that too many of 'our' guys (apologies to descendants of the other team, nobody holds children responsible for their father's actions) died feeling abandoned to the wolves by a military system still bogged down in it's own inertia, and surely enough people paid with their lives during WW1 under the same foul stink of bovine leadership to at least fight the next war with a modicum of professionalism and common sense evident at the staff level.

I'm no expert on armament, but I've seen nothing here to disuade me from the belief that .50 cals pack a much bigger punch, that they could have been chosen and fitted to the RAF fighters prior to the battle, and that doing so would have significantly increased the effectiveness of the fighter defences, in turn reducing the number of RAF pilots lost or at least increasing significantly the number of Luftwaffe aircraft shot down. This should have been clear to those in command beforehand but they made bad decisions across the board with this being perhaps one of the lesser sins. To simply shrug and say 'well we won in the end' doesn't do justice to the 'Few' who took an unnessessarily poor state of affairs and made good with it at great personal sacrifice, too many the final one.

 :salute The Few

  :furious The Air Staff

 

 
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