Dive vs. Compression in a BF-109

[Slade]

Hello,

As I spend more time in a 109, even after years of playing, I still have problems addressing 109 compression.  I have gotten a lot better but here is basically how I dive.

0. Angle my dive not too steep (if possible).
1. Back off the throttle.
2. Slam the rudder all the way over to act as a dive brake.
3. Fish tail a bit (side-to-side moves to burn off E).

Is there anything else I can do to slow down a dive in a BF-109 and avoid compression?

Thanks for your advice,

Slade  

[gyrene81]

not sure what else you could do besides using manual elevator trim to manage dive angle and diving in a wide turn if you have a good distance to travel...the only 109 i have trouble controlling in a dive is the k4...it holds on to speed almost as bad as the 190s.

[IrishOne]

i set my trim to my hat switch.   i can pull out of about any dive.    just don't over trim, it causes fun stuff like G-LOC, wings ripping off, etc. etc. 

[Karnak]

As I understand it, it is not compression, just really heavy controls at speed and that means it can be trimmed out of.

[STEELE]

As I understand it, it is not compression, just really heavy controls at speed and that means it can be trimmed out of.

Also, two hands on the stick was sufficient to pull out of a dive, according to most pilot accounts. (trim was not needed)
I vote since we have modeled the 109's heavy stick in dives, that we model the Spit's aileron reversal at speeds over 450 or so, to level the playing field.   

[Karnak]

Also, two hands on the stick was sufficient to pull out of a dive, according to most pilot accounts. (trim was not needed)
I vote since we have modeled the 109's heavy stick in dives, that we model the Spit's aileron reversal at speeds over 450 or so, to level the playing field.   

Not true.  One testing a captured Bf109 and finding the stick forces that bad the RAF testing unit observed that the high stick forces explained the number of 109s seen to dive into the ground, something they hadn't had a reason for prior to the tests.

If it makes you feel any better, Spitfire Mk Vs were so light on the elevators at speed that more than one broke up in the air due to the pilot pulling too many Gs inadvertently.  In US tests it was one of the things we dinged the Spitfire for, how imbalanced the stick forces required to move the ailerons were compared to the forces required to move the elevator.  At speed the Spitfire gets very heavy on the ailerons, but stays light (very light on the Mk V) on the elevators, which can be dangerous when you are trying to muscle it into a roll and then have to gently pull back on the stick going into the turn.

[Angus]

That was fixed inside the Mk V series. They simply added bob weights to the controls, so the stick would get heavier with higher forces, including increased -loads.
Impressive elevator authority though. Limitless!

[FLS]

Also, two hands on the stick was sufficient to pull out of a dive, according to most pilot accounts. (trim was not needed)
I vote since we have modeled the 109's heavy stick in dives, that we model the Spit's aileron reversal at speeds over 450 or so, to level the playing field.   

Could you post just one occurrence of Spitfire aileron reversal actually happening?

[R 105]

I know a trick to pull the 109s out of a drive but I think I will keep it to myself. One of the 109 veteran Aces High pilots showed me and it seemed kind of like a secret at the time.

[sunfan1121]

I know a trick to pull the 109s out of a drive but I think I will keep it to myself. One of the 109 veteran Aces High pilots showed me and it seemed kind of like a secret at the time.

I fly the 109 as much as anyone. The only tricks are chop throttle, use rudder, and trim up. 

[Krusty]

Trim trim trim. Trim is your friend.

What I hate is that in our 262, in our 109, in our 190s (I think), the entire horizontal stabilizer was the trim. It was hinged at the trailing edge, and the leading edge was attached to a screw. The screw turned one way to angle up, and the other to angle down. No adjustments were made to the elevator: the ENTIRE surface adjusted.


What I hate is that when we lose both elevators in such a plane we cannot use trim to help us limp home to land. We still have the trimmable surface.

I lost a ride in Battle over Germany because I lost both elevators in a 190a8. I was clear and free and heading home. I could have made it if I'd been able to use that trim. Just one of many times I've disliked how HTC models trim on those few planes that didn't trim like normal ones.

[STEELE]

Could you post just one occurrence of Spitfire aileron reversal actually happening?

http://spitfireforums.com/index.php?topic=37.0

OK so I guess the reversal didnt kick in till 580mph, but the reports state that 65% of aileron authority was lost by 400mph, also that all spits would flip onto their back and spin if pulled too hard in a turn, (not just the 14)
and the knowledge of this quirk kept many RAF pilots from tightening their turns while trying to stay with 109's

[Karnak]

Not sure, I don't take prop jobs to 580mph very often in AH, but I think the Spitfire is completely locked up at that speed in AH.

I would also guess that Spitfires in AH do lose something like 65% of their aileron authority by 400mph.  The roll rates for the Spitfires, including the clipped Mk XVI, are taken from the NACA roll chart, fyi.

[FLS]

http://spitfireforums.com/index.php?topic=37.0

OK so I guess the reversal didnt kick in till 580mph, but the reports state that 65% of aileron authority was lost by 400mph, also that all spits would flip onto their back and spin if pulled too hard in a turn, (not just the 14)
and the knowledge of this quirk kept many RAF pilots from tightening their turns while trying to stay with 109's

What you read stated that the light elevator forces made it easy to pull too hard. I'm sure the Spitfire pilots got used to it. All single engine aircraft will stall and roll if pulled too hard in a turn. It's relatively easy for a Spitfire to turn with a comparable 109.

[Angus]

They got used to it allright. And the problem was solved technically through pilots who actually realized what was happening and got out, - with a blue eye.
It was not just a light control, - the amazing thing is that it kept authority so well at high speeds.
Jeffrey Quill made a good text about this in his autobiography, and if I remember it correctly, Tony Bartley (a fighter ace and a part time test pilot for Supermarine) adressed this as well.
One of his squadmates actually used a snap entry and a correction in order to shake a 190 off his tail, - it was before the Spit pilots knew what the characteristics of the 190 were like.
Oh, and:
"and the knowledge of this quirk kept many RAF pilots from tightening their turns while trying to stay with 109's"
I cannot recall stumbling across a tale of 109's using a turn to successfully shake Spitfires off their tales, but it may yet exist. But the norm was that they were strongly advised to not try a turngame with a Spitfire. Sort of what you do in AH actually