Author Topic: P47m vs. P-47n: Round II  (Read 12101 times)

Offline Stoney

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Re: P47m vs. P-47n: Round II
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2010, 11:16:50 PM »
engine power output

The M was basically a D-30 up-engined to the C series R-2800.  That's all that really changed.

Power on the M was identical to power on the N as it was the same engine with the same rated power.  The better roll rate was due to the combination of bigger ailerons that had a longer moment than the D wing.  All the other differences were pretty much cosmetic.  The wing is the difference (including all the ancillary systems contained therein).  From a performance perspective, the wing planform (and its additional weight) made the difference.  
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Offline LLogann

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Re: P47m vs. P-47n: Round II
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2010, 11:56:12 PM »
My bad, not sure why I thought it was a 77, and actually looking up those two, I don't see any differences in engine between either 57 or the 77, at least from a game perspective.

Stoney has already answered, but...



Well, the difference in wing shape does actually lead to several differences.  Aside from the "now clear" gun position change, add center of gravity difference, fuel tanks in the N, flap difference, plus lift to drag ratio, amongst all other aerodynamics changes because of the size diff in the wings.  One physical change leads to a bunch of differences to flight, adding weight and drag/lift differences and you might call it tens of differences.  

It really was just the wing construction that changed.  Fuselage didn't change.

 :salute
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Offline Krusty

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Re: P47m vs. P-47n: Round II
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2010, 12:53:30 AM »
You might only do that if you're trying to defend your previous comments which have just been proven wrong.

P.S. The wing layout and wider guns were clearly obvious (without the need for a JPEG to compare them) to anybody that cared 1 wit about the planes prior to now. Even the AH plane wiki and these forums mention the wider guns placement. The wings were only made longer to accomodate a fuel tank in each. It's not like they created a new plane. They just inserted a plug at the wnig root.

Offline FLS

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Re: P47m vs. P-47n: Round II
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2010, 07:25:15 AM »
What do you mean 'since corrected?' I believe I was correct to begin with?  :confused:


Exactly the same. The only reason the M is 7-9mph faster is because it doesn't have nearly as much weight. More weight means slightly higher angle of attack, which means slightly more drag.



FLS, surely you're right. I was attempting to simplify it for comparison's sake. The extra wing area has more parasitic drag, if I've got my terms correct. That probably contributes PART of this 10mph difference.

Since you asked Krusty, your original statement and your correction.

Offline FLS

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Re: P47m vs. P-47n: Round II
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2010, 07:41:17 AM »
Lepape2 that's a very nice graphic comparison.  :aok

Offline Stoney

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Re: P47m vs. P-47n: Round II
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2010, 09:21:06 AM »
Well, the difference in wing shape does actually lead to several differences.  Aside from the "now clear" gun position change, add center of gravity difference, fuel tanks in the N, flap difference, plus lift to drag ratio, amongst all other aerodynamics changes because of the size diff in the wings.  One physical change leads to a bunch of differences to flight, adding weight and drag/lift differences and you might call it tens of differences.  

I understand what you're trying to say, but unless we do the math, we don't know how drastic any of these "differences" are.  I keep saying "from a performance perspective" because that's a very important qualifier.  I mean, if you really want to get detailed, the N had an autopilot, tail warning radar, rudder pedals that flipped down so the pilot could prop his legs up, a different turbo-charger, different power controls, etc.  But the gun position (and landing gear as well--they moved out so that the aircraft had even wider mains) doesn't change how it performs conspicuously.  You might say "well, with the guns and gear out further on the wing, it could affect roll rate".  I'd say "perhaps, but how much impact do the larger ailerons with a longer moment counteract that?"  We don't know unless we do some pretty scary math.  What we can characterize is our perceptions in-game.  I've flown the N a lot more than the M, but I don't notice a perceptible difference in anything other than climb, acceleration, and top speed (all due to the weight difference).  Without looking it up, I'd guess the Cd of both aircraft are very close to each other.  On a smaller, lighter plane, the changes that were made would have had a more conspicuous difference, but the P-47 is so damn big, the percentage differences get smaller.  

If you get into the larger ailerons, larger flaps, lift-to-drag ratio and center-of-gravity issues, you need to do the math on them to make any sort of comparative statement.  Obviously, my contention is suspect as well, because I haven't done the calcs either, but I suspect, especially for the CG, that not much changed from a performance perspective, other than the lower speed and climb due to the increased weight of the plane.  You can argue that at very low weights, the N becomes more a better sustained turner due to lower wing-loading (bigger wing at equivalent weights), but again, I wouldn't say there's a conspicuous difference.  For the most part, you can assume P-47N and P-47M performance to be equivalent, except for those flight characteristics affected by weight (climb and speed the most glaring).

Good discussion all the way around, and ditto Lepape--the effort to post that graphical comparison is very helpful.
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Offline Lepape2

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Re: P47m vs. P-47n: Round II
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2010, 09:55:13 AM »
[...]
Power on the M was identical to power on the N as it was the same engine with the same rated power.[...]  
Yeah I'm sorry I said it was different. Guess I got confused by doing a graphical comparison with the D-40 while this is all about comparing with the M.

Pretty good summary Stoney. I don't think we indeed need all the math (I hope someone is not doing them as I say that :uhoh) to see the true differences. Because in the end, most will take the M or N depending on whether they want more fuel or ords with a slight trade in performance or because they think(if they know it) that 10mph or 1000lbs doesn't make enough difference in most encounters to be considered a No-Go.

Personally, I prefer the N over the M. If there is a fuel leak, there is still some left in the wings. Plus, its got more muscular mass and manliness to it  :P
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 09:58:07 AM by Lepape2 »
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Offline LLogann

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Re: P47m vs. P-47n: Round II
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2010, 02:32:21 PM »
That is a very astute assumption sir...  :aok  And I'm sure we are both in the same "I'm not doing that math" boat.   :D

I've flown the N a lot more than the M, but I don't notice a perceptible difference in anything other than climb, acceleration, and top speed (all due to the weight difference).  Without looking it up, I'd guess the Cd of both aircraft are very close to each other.  On a smaller, lighter plane, the changes that were made would have had a more conspicuous difference, but the P-47 is so damn big, the percentage differences get smaller.  

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Offline Stoney

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Re: P47m vs. P-47n: Round II
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2010, 04:26:59 PM »
That is a very astute assumption sir...  :aok  And I'm sure we are both in the same "I'm not doing that math" boat.   :D


After that last "FW190 is porked" thread a few months ago, I sacrificed my MS Excel to the computer gods...   :)
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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