Roll Rate Advantage

[HighGTrn]

This question is for the experts out there.  No offense, if you are not in the Training Corps or sticks like Ack-Ack/Delirium.. please do not bother responding. I am looking for expert advice without having the need to sort through a lot of opinions.

To me, the benefit of a great roll rate allows me to get my lift vector to the desired vector faster than the guy I'm fighting thus allows me to start my turn faster than he can start his.

This can translate to getting in an and out of phase quicker during a scissor and initiating a lead turn before my opponent does (thus maybe gaining some adv at the merge).

Outside of defensive maneuvers like scissoring, how do you exploit a good roll rate to win a fight against a better turning opponent if E states are equal? For example, if I'm in a 190d and my opponent is in a Spit 8?

Thanks guys!

 

[JOACH1M]

This question is for the experts out there.  No offense, if you are not in the Training Corps or sticks like Ack-Ack/Delirium.. please do not bother responding. I am looking for expert advice without having the need to sort through a lot of opinions.

To me, the benefit of a great roll rate allows me to get my lift vector to the desired vector faster than the guy I'm fighting thus allows me to start my turn faster than he can start his.

This can translate to getting in an and out of phase quicker during a scissor and initiating a lead turn before my opponent does (thus maybe gaining some adv at the merge).

Outside of defensive maneuvers like scissoring, how do you exploit a good roll rate to win a fight against a better turning opponent if E states are equal? For example, if I'm in a 190d and my opponent is in a Spit 8?

Thanks guys!

 

Pm me I'll go to the TA and help u, it's pretty simple once I show you

[grizz441]

It's kind of a complicated question.  What I would tend to do is try to get the first merge as fast as I can by getting nose down, and then merging lateraly offset to my opponent.  This will begin a scissor right off the first merge.  As he goes for initial guns you begin a high speed rolling scissor using your roll rate to your advantage.  Hopefully by the time it gets slower he is in front of you and you can get guns on for the kill.  Cutting throttle may be necessary based on initial speeds, whether he cuts his throttle, and what aircraft he is in.

[HighGTrn]

It's kind of a complicated question.  What I would tend to do is try to get the first merge as fast as I can by getting nose down, and then merging lateraly offset to my opponent.  This will begin a scissor right off the first merge.  As he goes for initial guns you begin a high speed rolling scissor using your roll rate to your advantage.  Hopefully by the time it gets slower he is in front of you and you can get guns on for the kill.  Cutting throttle may be necessary based on initial speeds, whether he cuts his throttle, and what aircraft he is in.

Thanks Grizz. So that was what I was thinking too but again, it means having to get into a defensive maneuver to win the fight (or hopefully win). Here is an example of when I was able to exploit a superior roll rate against a better turning plane with equal states of energy.

I was in a Jug at about 15K when I happened upon a spitty or 109.. I can't really remember. I don't know if a Jug's roll rate is as good as a spitty or 109 but I do know that if I can get that guy fast enough, my roll rate WOULD be better. So I merged and feigned noob and baited him till he was committed behind my 3/9 line. I made sure I kept him just outside of D800 and started into a shallow dive. I would let him get a little closer (D600) and then increased my dive till he was D800 again. I kept this up until we were going 450+. When I felt that he was probably pretty stiff, I rolled one direction (not applying any elevators)... waited for him to follow. His sluggish movements to get me in phase confirmed that he was getting stiff. I then waited a second more to see if he would smarten up and pull out but his fangs were out and he wanted me bad.

I then rolled opposite, pulled about 2 Gs for a couple of seconds, rolled hard back to the other direction in a 90 degree back, then leveled my wings, eased off on the power, pulled straight up, and barreled over the top. He tried to follow but he just couldn't replicate my maneuvers fast enough so he ended up shooting out in front of me low, trying to get his nose up. I rolled in behind him and then went for the kill.

This was kinda what I was looking for and the only way I know to kill a better turning plane using roll rate adv. when me and him are equal in E.

I'd love to add to this tactic.

Thanks again.

[HighGTrn]

I remember now, it was a Yak.

[grizz441]

Yes that's exactly how you do it.  You get a very good feel for when to reverse based on experience.  Typically I like to reverse just before his nose points straight at me in my up-forward or up view.  Also remember, roll rate is as much a function of the plane as it is of the pilot controlling it.  I can roll a plane with worse roll rate just by fine touch and quick reactions faster than a sluggish opponent who has a plane with better roll rate, which may have also played a part in the example you illustrated.

[Ardy123]

the key is on the first merge do a low-slice back into where the other guy will be. This will sling shot you into the vert, where you can then roll so that your lift vector is 2 plane lengths behind the other guy, then don't pull back to go down until the other guy starts to pull up at the bottom, this will allow you  to conserve e.

The other thing is that you burn less energy over all if you can turn by having your nose vertical and rolling into the direction you want to go, instead of flat turning to that direction. Also, opponents that choose to drag you into a flat turn you should avoid by executing displacement rolls and keeping your e. If you can roll faster than they can turn, you can get your nose in position for a shot. The most important thing I can say is that visualize 2 eggs, one around your plane, one around the enemies, now try and roll your nose into where the eggs intersect.


here is a dumb example...
plane A = spit 9
plane B = 190 A5

190 is coming in hot on a spit 9, so the spit 9 turns to the right as hard as he can. the 190 seeing this, pulls up and rolls so that his lift vector is pointed away from the spit9. Once the 190 is nose high, the 190, continues to roll and pull back on the stick to place his lift vector 2 plane lengths ahead of the spit. The the 190 pulls back forming a awkward barrel roll and is in now in a mild climb (slinging out of the bottom of the barrel), with his nose pointed to where he will intersect with the spits flat turn (where he pulls the trigger and boom!).

[HighGTrn]

BTW, the reason I'm asking this question is because I found new joy flying the Dora. I see so many people abuse this plane. Its such a capable plane. All I ever see people do is HO and run in it. Its a real shame.

[pervert]

Thats the basics of it in a dora, the only thing i'd add is to keep the rolls smooth and round.  Smooth slow rolling at high speeds is the doras strength, pull on the elevators should be kept to an absolute minium until the enemy is low on e. A spitfire with no e to turn itself is just as bad a turner as a dora. I can't stress how important it is to be able to read an opponents e state in a dora. You kill by conserving your e rolling and letting the opponent burn his yanking on his elevators. Most of my kills are of people whos e i have drained to the point that they can barely maneovuer.

[Big Rat]

I agree with pervert, The trick to the Dora is winning the energy fight.  You can't always count on the high speed roll advantage to be enough against some planes (F4u for example), but you can easily out E fight it in the verticle, once you get its speed down a bit.  Patience is a great virtue in a Dora pilot.

 
BigRat

[Muzzy]

Great stuff on this thread, especially since I love flying FW's. I might have to get some training on this, although I've been somewhat successful I'd like to learn how to get more out of the Wulf.

[boomerlu]

I would love to see some film of this.

[BaldEagl]

It's kind of a complicated question.  What I would tend to do is try to get the first merge as fast as I can by getting nose down, and then merging lateraly offset to my opponent.  This will begin a scissor right off the first merge.  As he goes for initial guns you begin a high speed rolling scissor using your roll rate to your advantage.  Hopefully by the time it gets slower he is in front of you and you can get guns on for the kill.  Cutting throttle may be necessary based on initial speeds, whether he cuts his throttle, and what aircraft he is in.

Passing yourself off as being as good as AckAck/Del?  Sheesh.   

[grizz441]

Passing yourself off as being as good as AckAck/Del?  Sheesh.   

Not in a P38 obviously but this was a focke wulf question and I have some very good experience in those planes.   

[HighGTrn]

Hate Grizz when he's buzzing around in his hair dryer and I'm trying to dogfight in a crowd.