Author Topic: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?  (Read 2631 times)

Offline Kazaa

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2010, 07:51:43 PM »
Ah.....can we just have a new 16 with a bauble canopy and 4 20mm  :devil  :bolt:

XVI never had 4x20mm.



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Offline JOACH1M

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2010, 07:54:31 PM »
XVI never had 4x20mm.
XVI never had an air to air kill :noid :bolt:
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Offline MachFly

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2010, 08:01:48 PM »
XVI never had 4x20mm.

I'm pretty sure it did.

XVI never had an air to air kill :noid :bolt:

Don't know for a fact but that sounds about right.
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline JOACH1M

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2010, 08:05:13 PM »
I'm pretty sure it did.

Don't know for a fact but that sounds about right.
I've checked lol, Im not a fan of spits unless it's a XI
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Offline jolly22

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2010, 08:08:35 PM »
Sure, pick the spit 16 and the spit 9 and trade it in for this spit.

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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2010, 08:19:37 PM »
XVI never had an air to air kill :noid :bolt:

We had this discussion before, and you are wrong on that.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2010, 08:20:37 PM »
I'm pretty sure it did.

Don't know for a fact but that sounds about right.

You'd be wrong as well.  Spit XVI production run were all E wings with 2 20mm and 2 50 cal.

I do realize that you gents are somewhat new to this WW2 aviation history stuff, but I do wish you'd take more then a short glance around the web before making these pronouncements that are not close to the truth.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 08:22:19 PM by Guppy35 »
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Offline MachFly

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2010, 08:25:16 PM »
You'd be wrong as well.  Spit XVI production run were all E wings with 2 20mm and 2 50 cal.

I do realize that you gents are somewhat new to this WW2 aviation history stuff, but I do wish you'd take more then a short glance around the web before making these pronouncements that are not close to the truth.



I'll get back to you with a specific source.
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline Kazaa

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2010, 08:26:16 PM »
I'm pretty sure it did.

Don't know for a fact but that sounds about right.

I know a few Spit V's had 4x20mm cannon but it was felt that the loadout wasn't needed.

I remember someone telling me a story of a few Spit drivers who still tried to field mount 4x20mm none the less.

Infact, I've started to do as Guppy said and did research for myself.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 09:56:44 PM by Kazaa »



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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2010, 09:29:06 PM »
I'll get back to you with a specific source.

LOL no need.  I have all the Spit resources.  Trust me on this one.  I've been a Spit fanatic since the late 70s.  I'm telling you, without a doubt that the Spit XVI did not carry 4 cannons.

There was one ground attack squadron in Italy, flying Spitfire Vc with 4 cannon, and they also had the large tropical filter under the nose.  They were ground attack, not air to air.

The Malta Spit Vc that were delivered by carrier launched with 4 cannon but had 2 removed as soon as they got to Malta.  The performance loss was not worth the extra 2 cannon.  As was said at the time, if you can't hit em with 2 cannon, 4 isn't going to do you any good.  Again, these Spit Vc had the large tropical filter which stole performance as well.  The pilots wanted them lighter and better performing, not heavier.

No one was field modding 4 cannons, outside of one Spitfire VIII in the RAAF that was used to go after high alt Dinah recce birds.

The Spitfire 21, 22 and 24 had 4 cannons.  The 22 and 24 did not see combat.  The 21 was with 91 squadron in the late Spring of 45 before the end of the war but did not encounter any aircraft.  Those Spits had completely redesigned wings.

Again, understand that the E wing, used by the Spitfire XVI was not equipped to handle 4 cannons.  It was built to hold 2 cannon and 2 50s.

The Universal wing of the Spitfire Vc, the VII, VIII XII, part of the IX and XIV production runs could carry 4 but because of heating issues on the outer gun bay, it was not carried. 

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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2010, 09:44:48 PM »

No one was field modding 4 cannons, outside of one Spitfire VIII in the RAAF that was used to go after high alt Dinah recce birds.


That sounds like a weird thing to do considering the mission.
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Offline Kazaa

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2010, 09:46:17 PM »
Math + supporting quote

The weight of a single Hispano Mk. II 20mm cannon = 93lbs
The weight of a single Hispano Mk. II 20mm cannon shell  = 130g
The weight of 240 Hispano Mk. II 20mm cannon shells = 68lbs
The total weight of 2x Hispano Mk. II 20mm cannon and 240 cannon shells (120 RPG) = 254lb.

The weight of a single M2 Browning machine gun = 84lbs
The weight of a single .50 cal bullet is = 52g
The weight of 500 .50 cal bullet rounds = 57lbs
The total weight of 2x M2 Browing machine guns and 500 rounds of .50cal = 225lbs.

The weight of a single Browning .303 cal machine gun = 31lb
The weight of a single .303 cal bullet = 12g
The weight of 1400 .303 cal bullets = 37lb
The total weight of 4x Browing .303 cal machine guns and 1400 rounds of .303 bullets = 161lb.

A quote from Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment
Boscombe Down, 1942. Who did a brief perfomance and handling trials with 4x20mm cannon:

"(iii) There is no noticeable difference between the handling characteristics of this aeroplane and other Spitfire V types."

Source: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-V.html
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 12:48:06 AM by Kazaa »



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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2010, 10:17:20 PM »
That sounds like a weird thing to do considering the mission.

I'd agree, and I don't know that it ever got used for it.  But it is the one photo that always comes up when it comes to 4 cannons on a Spitfire VIII.  It had the extended wing tips too.

I just get tired of the same old conversation.  I love Spits.  Spit history has been a passion far longer then computer flight sims going back to 1980 when I spent a semester of college in England and got up close to a Spitfire Vc at Duxford. It's been downhill ever since on Spits.  I just put my little guy to bed and above his crib is the framed poster of 4 417 Squadron Spitfire Vb Trops over North Africa that I got in 1980 at the Imperial War Museum in London, that hung in my room, then my oldest son's room and now my youngest.  I really love Spits and their history. 

I'd be happy to see them add all the Spit variants that make sense, and since Spit XII history has been my specialty for many years, I'd really like that one.  But in the overall scheme of the AH world, they are way down the list.  Outside of maybe adding the Seafire LFIII, I really think that HTC did a great job on the Spit variants we have covering the entire 39-45 timeframe with the most variety.  And yeah I'd really love the XII for selfish reasons, but it can wait on all those other birds that should get here first :)

The never ending 4 cannon Spit wish, is to me worse then the Mustang Ia 4 cannon wish.  It was a non factor and the one squadron that did have them flew ground attack, lugging bombs and with that performance killing Vokes filter under the nose. 

I think folks have this idea that they'd get a regular Spit with more hitting power.  It just wasn't so.  If it was such a good deal they'd have had all the Spits with Universal wings carrying 4 cannons, and the E wing would have been purpose built with 4.  As it was, the E wing was 2 20 and 2 50 cal.



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Offline Kazaa

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2010, 10:26:43 PM »
Guppy, the "performance killing tropical filter" you speak of, this is what you mean? Infact, wasn't the tropical intake on our old Spit V.c?

« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 10:39:43 PM by Kazaa »



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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Can we have our old Spitfire Mk. Vc back?
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2010, 10:43:22 PM »
Not a very good portrayal of it, but yes that's it.  The old AH Spit did not have it.

These are the 2 Squadron SAAF 4 cannon Vc.  You can see the large filter.  It makes the P40 look sleek :)


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