So... what was with the....?

[daddog]

I have never found Viper or his squad to engage in anything underhanded. Quite the opposite. Many times in the past he has checked with me to make sure something was within the rules of FSO. His orders are as well planned and thoughtfully considered as any I have seen in the FSO years.

If I CiC wants to strike a target with a smaller, but credible force, then later in the frame with a larger force it is well within the rules.  I am not about to make some kind of rule change that would force everyone to attack a target within T+60.

[Drano]

Gotta say I think Viper's OK on this. Heck it sounds like something I might have done myself . It's not as if he sent 3 or 4 Jabo fighters in to lob bombs at the base and call that an attack prior to T+60. Apparently there was a credible attack by a fair group of bombers and their fighter escorts well before that--which is completely OK. That the base was hit again quite a bit after isn't against the rules or as I see it the intent or spirit of the rules. I was long gone by the time the cease hostilities was called so I don't know what happened there. I know that usually the case is both COs are asked by the CM if there are any ongoing attacks and if not then an RTB is called. Now if one side fibbed a lil about that and hit the base anyway then yeah I'd say that's right out. But unless that RTB gets called by the CM the spirit is also that it's a 2 hour frame and unless your CO gives you another assignment you're supposed to defend your area the whole frame.

BTW Krusty I totally get what you're saying about just flying around "avoiding" a fight. I just disagree that this qualifies. They were in bombers after all. The idea of a bomber mission is to hit the target and get home. Without any escort they did a good job of that. Now if they were in fighters and just hanging around the perimeter waiting for you to get into the pattern to just vulch ya that'd naturally be a different story.

[Viper61]

DD / Drano thanks for the compliments.  Always a pleasure flying with your squads as well.

Krusty if you don't like the rules then recommend a change.  Lets hear some options or ideas.....  The CM's always listen to new or good ideas.

My opinion is that the rules are good to go.  The rules as written allow for late frame strikes which keeps the squads in the general areas defending targets.  Without that rule the arena and event would in most cases turn in large furballs after H+60 because there would be no need to defend any targets after H+60 which is not in the spirit of the FSO as I understand it.   

[ghostdancer]

Actually Daddog, the first force that hit A143 was larger in composition than the second force. It consisted of 6 Bombers formations of 334th, 5 escorts from the 325th, and 4 escorts from The Unforgiven (18 bombers and 9 fighters). The second force, T+91 strike, was 7 bomber formations of the 325th (21 bombers).

As to the attacks a credible attack force of 6 B26 formations with escorts attacked A143 at T+34. It was engaged by the defenders and lost 13 B26s out of 18 to the defenders. The defenders did not orbit for hours without a chance of combat and were engaged by a credible force. It did 125 pts of damage out of 195 pts done to A143.

A second attack force of 7 B26 formations hit A143 at T+91. It was also engaged by defenders and lost 5 B26s out of 21 to the defenders actions. This strike did 70 pts of damage to the base (note they lost 75 points in bombers). This attack was not a suicide attack that had no chance of returning home (such as an attack at T+110 would be). The survivors did make it home and land.

The combined strikes destroyed 63.4% of A143.

The intent of the T+60 rule was to make sure that the DEFENDERS got a reasonable chance to see action in a set period of time. It was to make sure that the DEFENDERS did not orbit a base for 90 minutes or more only to see the attackers show up at the last possible moment in the frame to make their run.

As for the attackers, actually the goal of the attackers is to have their bombers come in with no defenders present over target. They try to do this by various methods such as:

1) Making their runs from an unexpected quarter.
2) Trying to trick the defenders to be out of position so they can't hit the bombers until after bombs are released.
2) Sweeping the target first with fighters to take out the defenders and then have the bombers coming in still under the T+60 deadline.
3) Sending in a low attack force to sucker the defenders to the deck and then having a high attack force come a bit  later.
4) Having one attack force hit from one direction, pulling the defenders that way and having another attack force come in from another, now open direction.
5) etc., etc., etc.

Now as for this particular gambit the allies sent in a large bomber force with escorts first. They got chewed up and exhausted your guys ammo and fuel, and banged up the defenders a bit. They waited 60 minutes for their second force to come in. Hoping that high altitude would protect them since they had no escorts. They took a gamble and by waiting so long which gave the defenders ample time to rearm, refuel, and get back to altitude.

Remember a frame is not over until either the CM says END FRAME or a CM says okay everybody RTB. Until one or the other it is game on.

[Molsman]

From reading everything that has been Posted it seems like No Rules have been broken in this Frame, Yes a First wave of bombers attacked the above mentioned base with Escorts and did the initial raid. As a Pilot involved with this Mission as the Second Raid with no Escorts. I think there were 2 things planned with our Mission Element of Surprise since the Enemy planes had to rearm and refuel and the Patience we had while flying this mission. I know I am new to FSO and not trying to over step anyones boundaries but I have to Say the 325Th Checker Tails and Viper are Top notch Squad and would not break the rules in anyway and seems like we were within the Allotted time frame for this mission.

Salute
Crazy8s

P.S. I think we just outsmarted the Enemy this time and they did not expect the last minute attack on their base.

[Krusty]

Gee... allies had less than 20 pilots in the air, we had 70-80.... There's a reason we weren't expecting it. You'll find with more exposure to FSO that hiding and avoiding the fight are not what this event is about. It would be a valid tactic if you had been sent in 30 minutes after the fact, but waiting 95 minutes after launch?

That's the frame CO trying to exploit the rules to get cheap (i.e. easy) points. Bad form. Bad form, old chap.

[oakranger]

I understand what Krusty is saying, however, CM are correct that no rules where broken.  This is one of these "loop hole" issues that can have some ppl bitter as this is not the first time such of a issue like this happen.   

[Sled]

Seeing as I was FSO team lead the last time a major re-working the T+60 rule was done. I will chime in.

The intention of the last rule re-evaluation, was that all targets would be attacked with a sizable legitimate attack force by T+60. Attacking a target with 2 spits at T+50 then attacking the same base at T+90 with 10 B-17's, is NOT acceptable. However attacking a base at T+50 with a sizable group of B-26's then attacking it again later with another group of B-26's would be legitimate (IMHO). Normally that second attacking group would be a strike group that is on clean-up duty. Normally you would not expect that group to have been flying around for 90min waiting to attack, but that is not breaking any rules. At worst that would be a grey area move. But I personally don't see a big problem with it. What is the difference in that and a group re-arming and then attacking the same base at T+90?

Now, personally I don't think I would want my squad to fly around for an hour and a half doing nothing, only to attack while most are on the ground, but if you can get a squad to be OK with that, then I guess all is good.

It is a viable tactic. The bad side is you are reducing your first strike numbers by keeping AC in reserve for later. In theory you may have better offensive statistics, but you will probably suffer higher losses early. Plus you have to ask people to sit around for 90min doing almost nothing.

[Shamus]

Krusty, you do realize that these non stop whine fests of yours make you a laughing stock don't you?. It would be different if you had a valid point, but you seldom do.

shamus 

[Krusty]

My point was as valid as those that complained of a chute on the rearm pad shooting them through the cockpit glass....

the fact you choose only to troll discredits you.

[Viper61]

GD - Sled:  Good points / Stats and comments  

Drano - Thank you for your post / comments and experience  

Krusty - to your comments:  And I assume that your referring to the 325th VFG - as for 325th VFG "exposure" to the FSO.  The 325th VFG was one of the first squads in the FSO and has a long histroy supporting the FSO events.  The 325th VFG CO "CUTT" has been a part of the FSO from its very beginnings and his player number is extremely low placing him AHII at nearly the very beginning.  As for me I've been involved in the FSO since 2003 and I have been a side CIC for every 325th VFG tasker since 2005 (8 CIC duty frames).  So as for "exposure" I think we have that one covered.  I fully understand the FSO rules and employ them using the "intent" of the CM's.  And DD pointed that to you above very well.

    Your comment to "Valid Tactic":  As a retired Military member with 22 years.  All tactics are valid, some work better than others.  The 325th VFG Attack against A143 utilized the valid tactics of Timing / Force multipliers / Coordination / Deception and Route selection.

    Your comment to the "Frame CIC":  Your incorrect I stated very clearly in the opening remark in my first post that I planned that mission.  The Frame CIC did not order the 325th VFG to conduct a late frame strike.  His orders were to attack and distroy A143 which the 325th VFG did following the rules and intent of the FSO.

Oakranger - The rules for allowing late frame strikes isn't a "loophole" in the FSO rules.  The rules are very clear and 3 CM's have explained them in these posts above, The FSO is a "full" 2 hour event.

Krusty and Oakranger - I understand you didn't like the 325th VFG operation, I get that and so does everyone else.  What are your recommendations on how to improve the FSO rules concerning strike times to targets?

[ghostdancer]

Gee... allies had less than 20 pilots in the air, we had 70-80.... There's a reason we weren't expecting it.

Per the rules I attached to all objectives a cessation of hostilities before end frame can only happen if both the Allied CiC and the Axis CiC agree to it. There was NO such agreement in frame 3 at that time juncture in question. Hostilities were still in place and both sides could still conduct operations as long as they could plan and conduct a strike and get home by end frame. I take a dim view of one way trips. This was not a one way trip.

All the Axis CiC had to do was to ask the setup CM to ask the allied CiC if he was willing to call the frame? If he said yes, THEN you would have known combat activities were no longer being conducted and then I would deem any additional action as null and void. If he said no or there was no response from the Allied CiC then the Axis CiC should have assumed that the Allies were still up to something and that it was not safe to remove his cap yet.

All the Axis CiC and players new was there was X many allied planes in the air and that an end to hostilities was not called / announced by the setup CM. Anything beyond this was an asumption since they did not know their make up, location, disposition or intent.

In the case of A143 the nearest allied base at A141 was about 100 miles away. Having the defenders RTB at with 30 or so minutes left in frame was a risky move since it gives an enemy force time to hit and get home whether they are survivors conducting a second strike or planes that were held back.

- Plane that can do 300 mph can cover 100 miles in 20 min
- Plane that can do 275 mph can cover 101 miles in 22 min
- Plane that can do 250 mph can cover 100 miles in 24 min
- Plane that can do 225 mph can cover 101 miles in 27 min

I don't know if the RTB was a local call at A143 or if indeed the Axis CiC did a general RTB call. If he did he actually exposed his A144 base even worst than A143. Since A143 is only 58 miles away from the nearest allied base A67. Which if the allieds had scraped up an attack force there it would have given them to T+105 to conduct operations and then get home to A67, depending on what aircraft were involved in the secondary attack.

[AKP]

For my part... I was in the tower when that strike happened and was on of the ones calling it out on country channel.  We were all a little amazed that full formations were hitting the target at T+90... and knew it could not have been a second strike.  I think we were all like "WTF?" when we saw it.  Having said that... after realizing how Viper61 planned it... I have to say "Job well done".

The reason I say that is this...  None of us should get used to the old "tried and true" to be thrown at us every frame.  A squad that does the unexpected is what keeps FSO interesting.  

Should a raid like this become the norm?  No.  And I dont think we have to worry about that either.  What they did was not easy to do in an FSO.  There were plenty of things that could have went wrong with the mission.  Timing could have been off, fuel calculations could have been off, they could have ran into a scout or patrol... remember they were flying with no escort.  The opportunity to do it is also not always going to be there depending on target packages, squad sizes and assignments, available planesets... etc.

But... what it should do is make defending squads and CiC's think harder about getting cap back up over the fields late in the frame.  Even if it had been a true second strike, the timing would still have been near perfect.  The fact that is was planned that way from the get-go... well... again, "hat's off".  

Were the rules bent?  No...  In my opinion they were taken to the limit of the letter.  Viper61 and the 325th played within the same box everyone else did.  They just did it differently that we are used to seeing.  


 

[oakranger]

Krusty and Oakranger - I understand you didn't like the 325th VFG operation, I get that and so does everyone else.  What are your recommendations on how to improve the FSO rules concerning strike times to targets?

Hold on there, i never said anything that i do not like 325th operation.  It was a smart move at the same time i see what krusty is saying too.  As far as the rules, maybe the CM should establish a second time limit for a second strike group that has not yet hit their target.  

[AKP]

As far as the rules, maybe the CM should establish a second time limit for a second strike group that has not yet hit their target.  

The problem I see with that is whatever that time mark would be, would be the signal to all defenders that they can stand down.  I don't think anything is broken.  Let's not try and fix it.