Reversals

[mtnman]

Like I said "If I can tell I have more energy" I might do this. It's an attempt to outzoom/rope. If I go up and the other guy follows but doesn't have a head of steam to follow; he hangs himself.
If he doesn't follow then I'm above him and I have options. The rate of closure in the head on makes for a difficult shot, if you suddenly pull up this is normally enough to entice someone to try and follow you. He is after all barrelling in on you in an overly aggressive way. You don't do it without the E advantage, you don't do it against cannon armed planes, you don't do it in the middle of a furball with bad guys above you and, you have to time it right. If you wait until your about to collide it's too late.

A rope is performed when someone is on your tail. In this case I'm offering my tail on purpose; the merge comes when the opponent passes under you pulling hard and bleeding E which is what makes it easier to perform. If your opponent is determined to shoot you down or ram you which happens all the time; he'll probably yank back on the stick as hard as he can when he can't keep you in his gun site. This happens all the time. If he doesn't pull...Fine, you're still above him and have options.

Passing the 3/9 is the merge, it's not necessarily the right point to start your turn. In fact I think you're late unless the other guy does the exact same thing but has a slower turn rate than you do. Then it's just one merry go round until your on his tail; but by then you've wasted E and may be a sitting duck for someone else. If you wait til the 3/9 line a better turning plane is already inside you. If you wait til the plane passes your 3/9 in a HO that means you've collided. If you manage separation properly in an E plane vs. a TnB plane your hoping he makes a mistake by yanking the stick and then you use the vertical to win. The same tactic will work for an E plane opponent if you have more E than they do.


There is a universe of possibilities, this is just one.

I understand it's just one possibility...

It is, however, a very common mistake I see pilots make.  They do learn that somehow the other guy gets around the immelmann on them quicker than they can, so they begin progressively pulling up sooner, and often end up doing just what you describe.  I saw it a lot when I was actively training.  An easy way for me to show them just how bad that idea is 99.9% of the time was to do it on the next merge so they could see just how easy it is to capitalize on.

As for the rope aspect, we're very conscious of that as well.  It could work as a rope.  The downside is that it's probably the single most-difficult time to finely judge your opponents E-state compared to yours.  Of course, you'll have a pretty good idea, but that's not really good enough to be consistently successful on a rope.  I'd go so far as to say I think the HO would be a better choice than the rope attempt in this situation, even though I think the HO is a very poor choice the vast majority of the time.  If you try this head-on rope-merge, if you're slightly off in your estimation of your opponents E he's behind you now too.  A very bad combination...  Now, if your nose was pointed upwards too, it'd be even worse (oops, it is!).

I'm not saying it'll never work.  It will, once in a while.  It's just that it's such a terribly low-percentage option that I sure wouldn't recommend anyone make an attempt to use it; while I'd feel very comfortable telling folks to try any one of several much higher-percentage options.

[Sonicblu]

Most of the time it just seems that way. I had a terrible time with acm until I realized that what I was seeing wasn't what was happening. A great example is barrel roll when the other guy does it, it looks like he is doing amazing turn back into you, when in fact you are passing in front of him. It's even worse if you are using your top  view as you

[Ardy123]

I partially agree with the advice given here. If you can get below the guy then at 400 roll into your turn, you can turn before he has time to react and if he turns the opposite way, (as most will), you'll end up on his six (opposite meaning if he turns to hisleft, you turn to your right). Make sure when you begin this move, not to over commit to it, ie watch what the other guy does, and react accordingly, don't just 'do it'. 

The real key that others have mentioned here is judging your opponents 'e'. Often when they are 'out turning' you, its because there is a 'e' discrepancy between you and the other guy.

[FBGrave]

I thank you all for the Advice. It is a LOT to digest.
I expect to be killed often as I try and use this information.
The  end goal is to shoot all of you down though....lol

thx very much.

[Noah17]

Thank you Ardy,

That is partially what I was getting at. For any  maneuver there  will have to be a combination of things that make it work. When I did see those things as I described earlier it worked and I haven't been killed yet. When my timing was a little off and we were a little too close the worst I got was a "ping or 2" and at the distance we were at I was not damaged. I stay relatively fast in the F4U and If I'm doing 300 and the guy coming coming at me is doing 250 that's a closure of 550MPH. In less than 3 seconds we will have closed more than 800 yards. It's difficult to hit anything at 800 yards, there is little time to do it and, the guy HO'ing me has basically tunnel vision, he's unprepared for the move so he'll be busy reacting when he had hoped to be shooting. As I pass over and above him I'm moving at approximately a 60degree angle up. If he keeps tracking me he has to pull through at least 120 degrees(I hope nobody is going to tell me an Immelman burns less E than a zoom?). As I see him do this in my rear view when he gets almost finished making his turn I go straight up. At this point he's still inverted and I'm dropping under his nose, he has to roll and pull(or push down on the stick when he's climbing, fighting against the lift of his wings) again to track me and try and get me in his site bleeding even more E. At this point I started with a little more than he did and now he's pulling all over the place. When I see him go nose straight up I give it a second or 2, he's still behind me and not close enough for an easy shot; he's still trying to get me to "settle" in his site. Now I start to pull inverted over top off him and I'm at least 1,000 above him; our speed/closure gave me that distance/separation easily, him being slightly slower and pulling harder didn't give him an advantage in fact it took away E. Now as I'm inverted over him and I start to see him stall, I roll in and hopefully (my gunnery sucks) gun  him down. If he just stuck with an Immelman and leveled off; I'm above him, slower or, can use "God's G" and can turn easier and, roll to line him up. It's no problem to drop on his six.
You can say only a noob would fall for that (well there are plenty of them in AH. I'm not trying to suggest that any on this post are or, act like Noobs), You could say a good stick(I'm sure you all are   ) would not fall for it, well then I haven't lost any E on my opponent at all (in fact I may have gained some if they kept going or, Immel'd). If I meet a good stick and I have more E at that moment it doesn't matter, I still have more E and can go up and up more than they can. If I misjudged my opponent's ability or E, I can cut my zoom early, roll level and get out of town. I've seen many of you post before and have seen you say that you would not be firing at 800 yards out or, 600 yards out. That's good advice, that's about the time I start to move. My opponent is now struggling trying to get me back in his site because I've started to maneuver and at that closure my opponent has to pull too many G's to hit me. Again, not against cannon planes(a hit at 1,000 out may still kill you), not in the middle of a furball with cons above me, not if I don't have more E and, there are plenty of ways to tell if you have more E than your opponent.

Also, let's keep this a friendly conversation among people that all enjoy the game and military history, let's not degenerate to name calling or score keeping. I've seen too many arguments go that way  on the BBS and would rather get along with people and agree to disagree.

Salute to you all and Happy New Year!

[mtnman]

We don't generally do the name-calling thing in the H and T forums, so I think we're safe.

Score?  No promises there...  I have no interest in it, but then again, this is a great forum to come and learn things that will lead to a better score.  Heck, learning to reverse will probably lead to a better score.

I'll have to go through some films, and show you what it looks like when someone "merges" with me like you describe.  I generally don't save those ones though, because they aren't very exciting.  I'd also hesitate to post them without permission, even though I've never asked someone for permission to post a film with them in it.  Maybe I'll draw up a diagram if I have time tomorrow.

If it works for you, great, I'm not going to argue too much. 

If you have more E than the other guy, and can rope him, great!  I wouldn't really consider that a "merge" though, and that may be where my confusion lies. 

I'm curious, do you review films of yourself?  Your merge speeds sound "off" if you're flying an F4U.  I'd consider the speeds you list (250 and 300) to be slow for a merge.  With the first merge (the pull up in front of me one) you describe, at the speed you describe, you'd find me 200 off your six by the time you were vertical.  If it was a "merge" I'd be almost guaranteed to be faster than you describe.  I might actually have to cut throttle to keep from colliding with you if I go for the shot. 

The reason it works that way is because I have no intention of shooting you on the merge, so I'm not going to be busy "reacting when you think I'd hoped to be shooting".  If you pass over me on the merge, I'll be pulling up while you're still in front of me, and be nearly vertical by the time you're above me.  By your estimate of merge speeds, I'll also be faster than you.  In the case where you intend to pass over me before you pull up (as in this most recent description) you might even open yourself up to get shot in the belly (I don't enter a merge intending to do that, but I'm real quick to grab something that's handed to me).

There are effective ways to rope someone on the merge too, but passing over him to do it is generally a bad, bad, idea.

Ardy described a completely different merge than you're describing.  I don't think his description supports yours.

[SAJ73]

One thing that nobody has really mentioned here though, and this goes directly to the OP..
Tried turning off combat trim while trying to turn hard? That can actually make alot of difference..

Stall limiter also should be turned off, but this I think most players learn quite early that they don't need on.
I have set a key on my keyboard for combat trim on/off, so I can just turn it off when I know I am going to turn real hard. Then I turn it back on when I go back to level flight because it makes the plane alot more stable in a level flight.

As for the merge discussion goes, I think a good advice here is practice practice and more practice. Try and fail, over and over. Film your sorties, try to learn from the films what your mistakes might be and try to do things different next time. When you start to get a good feel of your plane with combat trim off, and know how much input you dare to make at whatever speeds before flipover/stallout or whatever happens with your plane. Then you will start to notice an improvement in your SA I think, because you don't need to focus so hard on flying the plane. 

[Noah17]

The merge speeds were just an off the top of my head example of how fast closure really is even at those lower speeds; at higher speeds it will be much faster and reaction time is at even more of a premium. At a closure rate of 650MPH Me at 350MPH him at 300MPH; 800 yards is closed in 2.5 seconds. If I begin my pull up shortly after hitting 800 we would pass in just under 2 seconds; anyone trying to keep the pipper on me if they don't black out or pull too hard in to a stall will still have their rounds fly behind me while pulling that many G's. If I quickly nose up at 60 degrees and unload G's they must pull 120 degrees to shoot at me; that's simple geometry. The pull in to me that's twice the angle is going to bleed at least twice the E; I don't have to be an engineer or math wiz for that. I'm guessing that it would actually bleed more than twice the E as it's a harder and twice as long (because it's going through more degrees) of a pull/turn but, again I'm no physics guy or engineer. If any of you guys out there know that answer I'd like to know, it would be interesting.

Any how, if you disagree or find fault here Mtnman I guess we'll agree to disagree. I respect your opinion and you've been a great help to me and many others on many topics here, and in the TA as well; and I really appreciate it.
 

[mtnman]

If I quickly nose up at 60 degrees and unload G's they must pull 120 degrees to shoot at me; that's simple geometry. The pull in to me that's twice the angle is going to bleed at least twice the E; I don't have to be an engineer or math wiz for that. I'm guessing that it would actually bleed more than twice the E as it's a harder and twice as long (because it's going through more degrees) of a pull/turn but, again I'm no physics guy or engineer. If any of you guys out there know that answer I'd like to know, it would be interesting.

If I saw your maneuver, I might not find fault in it.  I might just see faults in it due to it's description, and the picture it puts in my head...

It all comes to the timing of the maneuver.

Your 60 degrees / 120 degrees doesn't necessarily ring true, and that's what's got me arguing (er, discussing) this with you.  That's probably also what BatfinkV/mechanic sees too.  Here's how~

On a "normal" merge for me, I get aggressive early, and get below my opponent.  I get a ton of "smash"By the time we're 2k from each other, I'm already somewhat nose up, but still flying to a point below my opponent.  This has the effect of setting our merge pass up so that I pass under my opponent, and he passes above me, with me going up at about a 20 degree angle while he's still nose down at about a 10-20 degree angle.  Now, assuming my opponent and I started out about equal in alt and speed, I'm generally a bit faster than him at this point because I built up more speed in my initial dive.  I've also maintained my speed because I've pulled out of that dive, leveled-off, and come nose up very gently (no hard elevator pulls).

Now, as we get closer, I'm actually flying to a point just behind his tail, which means that as he gets closer, my nose is coming up even more.  This means that as he passes over me, I may be as much as 70 degrees nose up already (depending on how much vertical separation he allows me to have, etc).  Now, assuming we both pull immelmanns to reverse our original heading, I may only need to pull another 110 degrees or so, where he may need to pull around 200!  This is a "normal" merge set-up for me, one that I can achieve in the majority of MA merges that aren't right on the deck.

Now, back to your original "pull up in front of him" merge description (keep in mind that as I close, I never take my eyes off of him, and as we pass (if we pass) I'm still watching him as he begins his next move, whatever it is.  That also means that if my opponent pulls up in front of me, I'm going to see it).  I'm fine-tuning my flight path based on his position and path the whole time.

A- If you stay above me, the more room you give me the higher my nose will be as you pass above me.  As an example, if I merge with someone but they fail to see me or react to my merge (as in they're just flying straight/level) my merge sets me up to fly right through the bottom of their plane.  I just squeeze the trigger before I hit them.  This is a fairly easy shot to make.

B- If they "pull up in front of me" into a 60 degree climb(like in your original description) before they pass over me, I can match that with a 20-30 degree "gentle on the stick" adjustment.  Not only is that a small adjustment that puts me right on his tail, I'm also going to be gaining on them, not falling behind!  This is an even easier shot to make than in description "A".

C- In your later descriptions, you mention pulling up after you pass over them into a 60 degree climb, and that they need to pull 120 degrees to match it.  That's not necessarily true, if I'm already 60-80 degrees nose-up as you pass over me!  I may not be able to close on you if you go 60 degrees up at this point, but I'll probably already be within 400-600 yds.

Pulling up after you pass over your opponent is definitely a better option though!  To make the "rope-merge" even more probable to succeed, it's better to fly further (1.5-2k) past your opponent though.  That way you can convince him to come all the way through his immelmann.  As he comes over the top and rolls level is the time to go up into your rope.  This has the effect of putting him at the slowest point of his merge, while you're still at full speed for your zoom.  As you go up, it'll be tempting for him to try to "cut the corner" on you which will work in your favor.

[Happy1]

Greetings 

Just thought I'd mention that in the old version, I believe version 1.14,
Dano had a bunch of merges whilst flying different planes in duels merges (all of them FILMS), for any1 interested his web address:

             http://www.danosacm.com

Give the url a try, u just might learn something. 

 

[Noah17]

Mtnman, I would certainly agree with the opening comments of your last post, it's just one other way of many possible ways to handle the merge; if you do "A" he might do "b", if he doesn't then you may do "C" and he might follow with something different....However with all of your other responses you forgot about the high rates of closure.
With your A response as the merge sets up I'm not above him when he initially turns in to me from where he was....I'm directly pointing at him and him at me HO.
With your B response from your last post yes, you can pull up at a lesser angle however you didn't address my point about high closure rate; I'll have passed well out of gun range in a second or two and you won't be on my tail. I can continue going or, if I feel I still have more energy or, given the match up in planes do something else. And, as I'm out of gun range I can have time and separation to do it.
With your C response I'm not pulling up after I pass him(I start before and continue holding that angle). In my merge I pull up to about 60degrees with a quick pull and maintain that angle (I'm no longer pulling/turning) shortly before we merge but still out of easy gun range(After 800 but before 600). Again his reaction time given our fast closure is an important factor, were talking about someone "HO'ing" me. He's not nose up before I pull and because there is no time given the rate of closure he will not be able to get me in his site after I pull. As far as my 60 angle up, he MUST pull 120degrees to get me in his site. Imagine a protractor set on a level plane. I'm moving left to right and pull up to 60 degrees just before we meet as I described. He is moving right to left; in order for him to get on my tail and put me in his site and in range he MUST pull a HARD turn of 120 degrees because I'm moving fast and he'll miss the shot if he doesn't do it quickly. My 60 degrees plus his 120degrees is the 180degree reversal if he doesn't do that he can't shoot me as he hasn't turned enough. When he tries to pull that hard he's blown his E and I have a clear advantage for an easy kill. Even if he were 80degrees up when I pass over him (he doesn't have time for it because he'll be reacting after me) at 60 degrees he'll still need to pull because he's only at 140 degrees of a turn (80 + 60 = 140) so, he'll need to continue pulling an additional 40 degrees to reverse the 180 degrees necessary to shoot me, thus he's still blowing more E. Like I said he won't have time for it given the closure, if he doesn't blackout or, stall from pulling too hard he won't have the E left from the hard pull around to match me. Also remember I'm not quite done with the maneuver at this point(read my descriptions earlier, once he turns and pulls I'm going to make him do it again while going up). What makes this work is the aggressive nature of his HO. Like a bullfighter sidestepping a bull, in this case I've gotten him to blow all his E(if he follows me) all at once rather than going through several moves to do it. I can try to pull hard and Immel with him, but why do that if it's not necessary? If I blow my E doing that I'm easy meat for another Con.....I can also try the "low merge" as you suggested and that might be ok but, like everything else depends upon the circumstances.
All things must come together for this to work (but don't most maneuvers?): He's aggressive and determined to shoot me at all cost trying to fly pipper on me he's trying to HO, We have a very high rate of closure, I throw an angle that he must work harder(blowing more E) to match, he can't have cannons, my timing must be right as well as my judgement of his E......This is a vertical lead turn just out of his gun range. It's beauty is that it kills him fast if he follows but if he doesn't I'm not in much danger.
You can say "I'm too smart to fall for that" but if that 's the case I can either blow through the merge and "reset" or, if I see you trying to lead turn me do something else......But remember if you were too smart to fall for it you wouldn't have been trying to HO me in the first place and, I wouldn't be trying this merge tactic. Of course Mtman I'm not suggesting that this is how you fly or, that you HO people LOL....A bunch of other folks do though and that's why I've had the ability to "fine tune" this somewhat.

[mechanic]

It's an interesting discussion because, as mentioned already, different things work at different times. We could define two ways of looking at the situation perhaps.

1: Judge our theory on the fact that all skill levels vary in the MA and therefore X technique will work some of the time so long as the enemy is not paying attention/does not have the knowledge/ability to counter X technique.

2: Judge our theory on the premise that we are always facing an enemy that knows everything and has maximum ability.



Option 1 is a realistic scenario, therefore option 1 will work X amount of times and fail Y amount of times.

Option 2 is an unrealistic scenario. However if we plan for the enemy in option 2 the technique will work 100% of the time against any level of opponent.


For example:
A lesson on the BRD (barrel roll defence) is almost certainly going to have to follow option 1. Because if we were defending against a 'perfect' opponent then we are going to lose whatever we do when starting at complete disadvantage. Even by attempting the BRD we have to assume that the enemy is not perfect and that is how we intend to switch the fight to our advantage. So the BRD is never a certain move to work. It is a defensive move that hopes to benefit from the enemy's mistakes. You are giving a shot to gain a shot, most times. That is not something you want to do if you are not already forced to give a shot to start the engagement.

 A lesson on merging on the other hand should follow option 2. The merge suggests equal advantage in angles for both aircraft. We have to assume the enemy is as good as they get. We don't need to trick or switch advantages because, in terms of angles, the merge is equal.

So Noah, what I am trying to highlight here is that while your merge technique may work against some of the enemy some of the time, it would often not work if the enemy is 'as good as they get'. What MTNMAN suggests is a more unrealistic (all enemy are perfect) scenario....BUT...The technique he describes from that possition will work against anyone in any plane. Or at the very least it is taking the worst case scenario (enemy pilot is perfect) and considering that before deciding how to merge.

[TequilaChaser]

most excellent analogy you posted batfink ( mechanic ) 

[mtnman]

Nice post BatfinkV/mechanic!

Noah, keep in mind I'm not arguing, just explaining. 

In my previous post I chose not to comment on the closure rates again.  I wasn't ignoring them. 

One reason I chose not to mention them again is that your speeds are understated again IMO (watching gobs of my films I've found our rate of closure to be 700ish, very often faster than that...).  Another reason is that it doesn't effect my merge in the manner you suggest, so I didn't think it was important enough to worry about.  Third, it's kind of misleading, and very difficult to be "accurate" on (which is why it's misleading)...  About the best we could do would be to just look at the combined speeds of both aircraft, but that's not really what's happening.  That would only apply if we were flying directly at each other, which seldom happens in merge if even one person knows what he's doing.

I don't consider avoiding the HO to be a problem, so I don't factor it in much apart from placing myself in a hard-to-hit position.

I scraped up a film showing merges that I perceive to be very close to what you describe.  I tried to edit it down, but repeatedly got errors so I'm just going to post the whole thing.  The parts to watch are the very first fight, and then the fight between 4;20 and 6;55.  Both are with me in an F4U-1C vs. Sunka in a P51B.  There are a few other fights on the film, but nothing exciting.  I very seldom fly the -1C, so I'm a bit sloppy in it, and my shooting is pretty bad, but you'll get the point I think.

Sunka and I spent a bunch of time in the TA, and I don't think he'd mind me posting this. 

Watch the text following both fights.  Especially watch it up to about 6;55...

Things to note-  In both cases, he was above me, and thought he could rope me.  In both cases, he pulled up in front of me, very similar to what you describe.  He also thought he had more E than me on the first fight, and probably the second one for sure.  It's practically impossible to judge the speed of a plane in a nose to nose merge, so there's really no way to know if you're 50mph faster than him...  He also thought I turned more sharply than him (reminds me of the 60/120 degree thing), which is why he thought he could rope me.  He probably based that idea on the fact that he started out behind me, at a faster speed than me, and that I first turned 180 back to him, and then pulled back into an immelmann of sorts to follow him up (and catch him) on his rope.  Meanwhile, he flew straight, and was faster to begin with.  With me slower, and then doing all that turning, how could I be fast enough to do that?

Full version-

http://www.mediafire.com/?dgkv1a5prd9dhi1

First fight only-

http://www.mediafire.com/?qr0dlf0mgdtmq0w

[mtnman]

Sorry, I don't like Mediafire.  I deleted those links.

Full film-

http://www.4shared.com/file/bgJ8s6RD/Send_to_Sunka.html

First fight only-

http://www.4shared.com/file/7MfA6sJN/Sunka_1.html