Author Topic: Power Available versus Power Required  (Read 3547 times)

Offline Stoney

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Power Available versus Power Required
« on: April 18, 2011, 12:25:08 AM »
Ok, I know I've been beating this horse to death in a couple of different threads, so I made a Power Curve for the F6F as an example.  For comparisons between aircraft, this is what you really need to create in order to get a no-crap assessment of how they compare.  Simply looking at power-loading or wing-loading will NOT give you enough information.

So, here's the chart:



On the chart, you'll see curves for Power Required (Pr), Power Available (Pa), and Excess Power (Pe).  I've also included some of the speeds that this type of analysis will also give you:  Vs (stall speed), Vmax endur (speed for maximum endurance) shown at the precise point power required is at its minimum, Vmax range (speed for best range) shown at the tangent from the reference line drawn from 0 where it hits the Power required curve, and Vx (best rate of climb) where excess power is greatest.

This chart is only useful for comparison for non-accelerating, level flight at the same weight.  If you want to compare turn performance or zoom climbs, you have to set this type of comparison up differently.  If the weight changes, you have to generate completely new curves.  Just to produce this took me several hours, so keep that in mind next time you want to make an argument based purely on anecdotal information or over generalization and can't understand why I'm skeptical.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 12:49:22 AM by Stoney »
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Power Available versus Power Required
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2011, 12:33:35 AM »
One thing you can see is the effects of propeller efficiency.  Even though the F6F engine is rated at 2000 BHP, only ~1650 is available due to propeller efficiency losses.  This is why power-loading is a dangerous metric to use to compare aircraft with, especially when deciding one aircraft should climb better than another with lower power-loading.  Notice that Pe = 0 at max speed.

If you wanted to properly compare the climb potential of two aircraft, you can use a chart like this and plot the Pe Curves for both aircraft and then have a reasonably accurate expectation of the relative performance.  Pe curves can show, for example, how an aircraft with lower power-loading can have higher excess power, or an aircraft with higher power-loading can have lower excess power.

These curves represent knowledge of total drag acting on the aircraft (both zero-lift drag, and induced drag (so you need Cd0 and Cdi), propeller efficiency, rated engine power at a specific altitude, etc.   At speeds approaching transonic, you'd need to account for compressibility drag as well, and if the aircraft are maneuvering, effects of those maneuvers on zero-lift drag.

Information you'll need to have access to in order to create this type of chart:  stall speed at a specific configuration (testable in-game using Badboy's Bootstrap Calculator) and maximum speed at that configuration (testable in-game), the zero-lift drag coefficient of the aircraft, rated engine power at the test altitude (either from a chart or derived by accounting for changing dynamic pressure with altitude), wing area, aspect ratio, some sort of accurate estimation of Oswald's Efficiency Factor for that aircraft.  Then, using standard aerodynamic equations, plug everything into an Excel spreadsheet and start working.  My spreadsheet for this chart had approximately 20 columns in it, and the curves were created using speeds broken down into 5 mph increments between 96 mph and 320 mph.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 12:47:06 AM by Stoney »
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Offline moot

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Re: Power Available versus Power Required
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2011, 12:52:46 AM »
That's so much better than just power loading and wingloading..  What I had in mind (with no clue of how much work it'd require) is to extrude this plot into altitude dimension.  If you (general you) could have such a 3D plot into some interface like DokGonzo's flash based charts, the only thing missing for an excellent no-crap comparison within the whole planeset would be (e.g.) some kind of slider below the plot to vary maneuvering G.  Varying either each of the two planes' plots separately, or both of them in lockstep..

It'd be a huge amount of work, but it'd make for a great picture of the planes' true performance.  Would that be realistic?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 12:55:24 AM by moot »
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Power Available versus Power Required
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2011, 01:04:39 AM »
That's so much better than just power loading and wingloading..  What I had in mind (with no clue of how much work it'd require) is to extrude this plot into altitude dimension.  If you (general you) could have such a 3D plot into some interface like DokGonzo's flash based charts, the only thing missing for an excellent no-crap comparison within the whole planeset would be (e.g.) some kind of slider below the plot to vary maneuvering G.  Varying either each of the two planes' plots separately, or both of them in lockstep..

It'd be a huge amount of work, but it'd make for a great picture of the planes' true performance.  Would that be realistic?

There are ways to represent this just as you envisioned.  They just take some more information, and some more work to create.  And, yes, it would be an incredible resource for the community--just a ton of work for whomever puts it all together, and then it would only be a close approximation (as mine is) because there are always other variables than can affect the plots, like ram air effect for example.  But yes, it is possible.  Realistic?  Well, given the time demand, probably a pretty steep hill to climb, but certainly within the realm of possible.
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Offline colmbo

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Re: Power Available versus Power Required
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2011, 01:24:07 AM »
I expected Pe max to be at Vy instead of Vx.


*edit   Just noticed in the text you state Vx is Best Rate --- Vy is best rate.  <S>
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Offline moot

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Re: Power Available versus Power Required
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2011, 01:34:12 AM »
Stoney
From your experience, what's a rough (+-20%) proportion for the duration of game data gathering, relative to the whole process (all of data gathering, calculation, chart drawing etc) ?  Strictly for a 2D version as above.

About the "maneuvering G" dimension, does turn inclination not matter?  That'd be one additional dimension IE a whole extra data set.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 01:39:31 AM by moot »
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Power Available versus Power Required
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 01:43:57 AM »
I expected Pe max to be at Vy instead of Vx.


*edit   Just noticed in the text you state Vx is Best Rate --- Vy is best rate.  <S>

You are correct sir...  Sorry--missed that rather large detail...
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Power Available versus Power Required
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2011, 01:50:00 AM »
Stoney
From your experience, what's a rough (+-20%) proportion for the duration of game data gathering, relative to the whole process (all of data gathering, calculation, chart drawing etc) ?  Strictly for a 2D version as above.

About the "maneuvering G" dimension, does turn inclination not matter?  That'd be one additional dimension IE a whole extra data set.

About 15 minutes of testing will get you accurate stall numbers from which you can progress to the number crunching.    Of course, if you want to test the same aircraft at 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% fuel, for example, it would probably take you an hour or so per aircraft.  If aircraft have different armament configurations (i.e. the 190s), then you'd have to account for them as well to be completely thorough.  A lot of the time will be spent setting up the spreadsheet and linking all the formulas.
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Offline moot

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Re: Power Available versus Power Required
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2011, 01:52:14 AM »
So about 30-45min per plot per configuration? That'd be pretty reasonable..  Thanks Stoney.

And inclination would matter if we wanted to make a new plot for any given configuration, except under a given maneuvering acceleration, right?  And that'd require some new math as well?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 01:54:20 AM by moot »
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Power Available versus Power Required
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2011, 02:05:58 AM »
So about 30-45min per plot per configuration? That'd be pretty reasonable..  Thanks Stoney.

And inclination would matter if we wanted to make a new plot for any given configuration, except under a given maneuvering acceleration, right?  And that'd require some new math as well?

Well, maneuvering comparisons get into Specific Excess Power calculations which are a little bit different than what I've got presented here.  I'm sort of treading on thin ice with respect to my knowledge on how to express these things, so in the interest of not saying something completely wrong, we might wait until some of the "heavies" come back here and chime in.

[Paging Tango or BB]  :)
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Offline moot

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Re: Power Available versus Power Required
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2011, 02:42:06 AM »
If it does matter (I expect it does.. I can't picture it not mattering..), it might make it impractical to make such a maneuvering G "knob" for players to turn on that hypothetical 4D plot.  There'd just be too much data to gather.  It'd have to be calculated.

So far it looks like:

altitude: say 5k steps from SL to 30k
fuel: 20min's worth / 25% (if more than 20min) / 50% / 75%
gun packages
flaps
..
and then maybe
2G acceleration: flat, 45deg, 90deg inclination
4G acceleration: " ... "

That'd be a lot of work.  If those are the useful dimensions.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 02:48:51 AM by moot »
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