Author Topic: Name and special 190.  (Read 1915 times)

Offline Charge

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2011, 06:14:10 PM »
It seems that the intake experiments used a different intake than what was the "tropical intake". In tropical intake there was the option to close the front opening and pull the air in from baffles on back of intake mouth and the experimental high boost intake does not have those and thus it did not have the front flap either. As is said already it did have positive effects on engine performance and despite a slight increase in drag the benefir was greater. However they were never use in large scale. AFAIK that is.

Two superchargers? Only the normal two speed single stage supercharger IIRC.

-C+
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline beau32

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2011, 10:18:15 PM »
Only reason your getting the alerts for the link I posted is for the ads that are on the site. The owner of the site knows about it and is working to fix the issue.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2011, 11:10:32 PM »
Can't be working that hard a fixing the problem. It has been at least 3 weeks since I first noticed.

Offline beau32

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2011, 09:20:01 AM »
He is doing what he can, he has some other things going on too
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2011, 02:17:08 PM »
It seems that the intake experiments used a different intake than what was the "tropical intake". In tropical intake there was the option to close the front opening and pull the air in from baffles on back of intake mouth and the experimental high boost intake does not have those and thus it did not have the front flap either. As is said already it did have positive effects on engine performance and despite a slight increase in drag the benefir was greater. However they were never use in large scale. AFAIK that is.

Two superchargers? Only the normal two speed single stage supercharger IIRC.

-C+

I believe you are correct, it was a single supercharger but it wasn't the normal model, I believe it was a beefed up version tooled to better handle higher altitudes.  Can't recall where I read that though atm, so I may be wrong.


Lovely thread here btw.
-Babalon
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Wow, you guys need help.

Offline Tyrannis

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2011, 02:38:42 PM »
so...when do we get it in the game?  :bolt:  :D

Offline Babalonian

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2011, 02:42:15 PM »
I'm actually having real-life problems with this as well.  I have a Piper Aztec-F which has twin 250hp Lycomings.  The lack of air density at higher altitudes makes the air-cooled engines run hot; the fins on the cylinder heads just don't have enough air molecules impacting them to carry away the heat.  This is at relatively low alts of FL 180 - FL 200, not at the 30k + alts that an interceptor would be required to fly at!

I wonder if Jugs/Corsairs/Hellcats had any issues with this.  Did the Pony and Lightning designers opt for liquid-cooling because of the altitudes they were designed to fly at?  I imagine that a radial engine would have far fewer problems than my inline Lycomings...

Read up on the development of the early 190s (the As), might be an interesting read for you and the issue you're dealing with.  The overheating problem with the early 190s was more of an issue with the design of the cowling and it's effect of air flow over the engine in combination with the engine's design itself, and less with altitude and thin air if I recall (though, obviously an issue to be considered).  The BMW radials in 190s was a two-row radial engine design, meaning the first half of the engine's heads were arranged in a forward row, closest to the propeller and air intake.  The second set of heads and back-half of the engine was located behind the first set of heads and incoming airflow for cooling.  Also, in the first 190As, the engine was mounted/located as close to possible infront of the pilot and controls, making the overheating issue a particularly noticable and uncomforitable one to pilots.

AFAIK they never really adequatley resolved, completely, the issue of the rear-row of heads overheating (furthest from the prop and intake, closest row to the pilot) in the BMW radials and all the A-series 190s.  It was a major issue in the first prototypes and first 190As, test pilots refered to flying the plane to like sitting with your feet in a fireplace.  Eventualy (~ the time of the A-5 production) the first 190s had been around in some creative mechanics and crews hands long enough that some inovations and improvements made it back to the factory and into the production lines.  The later 190 As eventualy featured longer cowlings and front ends (more space between the pilot and the rear heads, this also allowed more air circulation), larger cowlings with larger front openings (to allow more air in and around the heads), improvements to the cooling fan and gearing (the 190s featured a fan that helped with air circulation just beyond the propeller spinner and within the front opening on the cowl, see the OPs 2nd pic), and the iconic large "slots" for the exhaust and evacuating cooling airflow (a field modification on the first As that the factory then adopted as standard).
-Babalon
"Let's light 'em up and see how they smoke."
POTW IIw Oink! - http://www.PigsOnTheWing.org

Wow, you guys need help.

Offline Babalonian

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2011, 02:46:18 PM »
so...when do we get it in the game?  :bolt:  :D

There were only three made. 

If we want to put effort into talking about lighitening up a 190 and introducing it to AH, let's resurect the old issue of HiTech modeling for us in the game the heaviest (and most overweight) produced varient they ever made of the 190A-8, also in combination with one of the most underpowered engines they used for all the 190A-8 series of aircraft.
-Babalon
"Let's light 'em up and see how they smoke."
POTW IIw Oink! - http://www.PigsOnTheWing.org

Wow, you guys need help.

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2011, 05:39:40 PM »
Babalonian, there was a section added in front of the pilot on the A-5. From then on the lengths were the same.

The first 190 used the BMW139 engine of smaller diameter than the BMW801. There was no change in engine cowl diameter, or opening, after the BMW801 engine was fitted.

Offline beau32

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2011, 08:51:08 PM »
http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/11/stuff_eng_fw190_01.htm


This page will help you in understanding the different varents and how they looked.

to upgrade the height performance of the Fw 190 (which we already established here) was to use external air intakes for the BMW 801 engine. This is not to be confused with the Fw 190 trop version. The test report of FW 190 No. 528 dated 27.8.1942 shows that the critical altitude -Volldruckhöhe- increased from 6400 m to 7400 m when using emergency power. Therefore this Fw 190 reached a speed of 694 km/h/431 mph at critical altitude (full throttle height) (1,42 ata, 2700 U/min, 2 MG 151, G = 3640 kg, 25.8.42). Focke-Wulf documents indicate that the external air intake should be used for the Fw 190 series, however, for reasons not yet clear it saw little operational use. While no concrete numbers can be given for aircraft equipped with this modification, a small notification from 1944 notes that 250 construction kits were available for installation in Fw 190 fighters.
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Offline Charge

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2011, 03:35:20 AM »
While the extra performance was certainly welcome the FW190s had too high wingloading to be effective fighters that high. I guess it was just not worth the effort to start installing them, especially if there were any adverse effects on performance on altitudes which suited FW better from aerodynamic point of view.

-C+
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline Babalonian

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2011, 03:19:22 PM »
While the extra performance was certainly welcome the FW190s had too high wingloading to be effective fighters that high. I guess it was just not worth the effort to start installing them, especially if there were any adverse effects on performance on altitudes which suited FW better from aerodynamic point of view.

-C+


That would be logical as I believe the next major component to get the attention of Focke-Wulf for improvement were the 190's wings.
-Babalon
"Let's light 'em up and see how they smoke."
POTW IIw Oink! - http://www.PigsOnTheWing.org

Wow, you guys need help.

Offline Mike Williams

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2011, 05:33:59 PM »
http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/11/stuff_eng_fw190_01.htm


This page will help you in understanding the different varents and how they looked.

to upgrade the height performance of the Fw 190 (which we already established here) was to use external air intakes for the BMW 801 engine. This is not to be confused with the Fw 190 trop version. The test report of FW 190 No. 528 dated 27.8.1942 shows that the critical altitude -Volldruckhöhe- increased from 6400 m to 7400 m when using emergency power. Therefore this Fw 190 reached a speed of 694 km/h/431 mph at critical altitude (full throttle height) (1,42 ata, 2700 U/min, 2 MG 151, G = 3640 kg, 25.8.42). Focke-Wulf documents indicate that the external air intake should be used for the Fw 190 series, however, for reasons not yet clear it saw little operational use. While no concrete numbers can be given for aircraft equipped with this modification, a small notification from 1944 notes that 250 construction kits were available for installation in Fw 190 fighters.

lol!  That's quite a lot like what Dietmar Hermann and I came up with during our collaboration on our Fw 190 A-5 article :)

"Another procedure to upgrade the height performance of the Fw 190 was to use external air intakes for the BMW 801 engine. This is not to be confused with the Fw 190 trop version. The test report of FW 190 No. 528 dated 27.8.1942 shows that the critical altitude -Volldruckhöhe- increased from 6400 m to 7400 m when using emergency power. Therefore this Fw 190 reached a speed of 694 km/h/431 mph at critical altitude (full throttle height) (1,42 ata, 2700 U/min, 2 MG 151, G = 3640 kg, 25.8.42). Focke-Wulf documents indicate that the external air intake should be used for the Fw 190 series, however, for reasons not yet clear it saw little operational use. While no concrete numbers can be given for aircraft equipped with this modification, a small notification from 1944 notes that 250 construction kits were available for installation in Fw 190 fighters."

;)


Offline beau32

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Re: Name and special 190.
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2011, 08:10:22 PM »
lol, not saying it was mine, I should have posted the source, but forgot too. That is some great info yall posted though. Do you have any more on these types of Fw-190's, as if it inproved performance, I am surprised they didnt use the kits more.
"There is always a small microcosm of people who need to explain away their suckage."