Author Topic: shoot downs in AvA  (Read 2134 times)

Offline Oldman731

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2011, 06:05:30 PM »
krusty, i don't believe the mg/ffm was noted for it's range or hitting power...hence the main reason it was replaced by the mg 151/15 and subsequently the mg 151/20...on the other hand, weren't the hurricane mk1's produced with wooden frames and fabric covering the fuselage? if it's modelled that way in ah, that would explain some of the low damage from the mg/ffm shells...it's been documented that the explosive shell wasn't as effective against the early hurricanes as it was against the all metal aircraft.

You're both right.  The MG FF did have those explosive shells, but they were smaller than the stuff that came later AND, most important, as Krusty notes, they're harder to hit with at long ranges because the trajectory is so awful.  Fly in BoB, you'll observe that it's much easier for an Emil to shoot down a Spitfire than a Hurri, for the reasons Gyrene points out.  The Spitfire's stressed skin fuselage was more vulnerable to cannon shells than the Hurri's WWI-era construction.  Of course, the Spitfire was also a lot faster than the Hurri because it was lighter.  Yin and Yan.

Moral, as everyone seems to agree, is that with these planes you have to get on your opponent's six and then get very close before you fire.

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Offline Krusty

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2011, 06:14:38 PM »
krusty, i don't believe the mg/ffm was noted for it's range or hitting power...hence the main reason it was replaced by the mg 151/15 and subsequently the mg 151/20...on the other hand, weren't the hurricane mk1's produced with wooden frames and fabric covering the fuselage? if it's modelled that way in ah, that would explain some of the low damage from the mg/ffm shells...it's been documented that the explosive shell wasn't as effective against the early hurricanes as it was against the all metal aircraft.

What is "range"? For the MG17s the effective range is really 150 yards. MG/FFm were good out to 400 and more. Yes, the accuracy got worse, the further out. BUT, if you hit you killed the target, whereas the MG17s did not. It was a major step upward, and one the RAF would mimick quickly. The BOB proved one thing: rifle caliber Mgs didn't bring down planes fast enough or at long enough range. All nations would move past this armament at some point.

The wooden vulnerability of the Hurricane is another myth that goes around. I don't think I really believe that one. I think it's possible some rounds went through just making a hole, but then some 20mm rounds in WW2 were solid AP rounds. Some were tracers. Some were duds. Not all exploded. Looking at other wooden planes, 20mms had no problems bringing them down if they landed hits. I tend to think that's more wishful thinking than actual fact.

Regardless, from personal opinion I think the hurricane is a bit tougher than the spitfire1 (in-game, I mean). So I think that's already accounted for.

Offline Dichotomy

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2011, 06:23:02 PM »
so Krusty when will you grace us with your presence in the arena?  Just askin
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2011, 06:49:01 PM »

Regardless, from personal opinion I think the hurricane is a bit tougher than the spitfire1 (in-game, I mean). So I think that's already accounted for.
absolutely agreed...


The wooden vulnerability of the Hurricane is another myth that goes around. I don't think I really believe that one. I think it's possible some rounds went through just making a hole, but then some 20mm rounds in WW2 were solid AP rounds. Some were tracers. Some were duds. Not all exploded. Looking at other wooden planes, 20mms had no problems bringing them down if they landed hits. I tend to think that's more wishful thinking than actual fact.
not so sure about that...anectdotal evidence aside that is


What is "range"? For the MG17s the effective range is really 150 yards. MG/FFm were good out to 400 and more. Yes, the accuracy got worse, the further out. BUT, if you hit you killed the target, whereas the MG17s did not. It was a major step upward, and one the RAF would mimick quickly. The BOB proved one thing: rifle caliber Mgs didn't bring down planes fast enough or at long enough range. All nations would move past this armament at some point.
i dunno krusty...the 7.92mm mauser round is/was known to maintain supersonic velocity out to 1000m using the standard 192gr ball ammo...150 yards seems a bit short considering baseline infantry combat range was 300 to 500 yards and the mg17 had a longer barrel than the basic infantry rifle (kar98) which greatly improved its range and accuracy...similar to the mg42 machine gun.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2011, 07:53:54 PM »
i dunno krusty...the 7.92mm mauser round is/was known to maintain supersonic velocity out to 1000m using the standard 192gr ball ammo...150 yards seems a bit short considering baseline infantry combat range was 300 to 500 yards and the mg17 had a longer barrel than the basic infantry rifle (kar98) which greatly improved its range and accuracy...similar to the mg42 machine gun.

...um...where are you getting this, gyrene?  I show 8x57 as less than 1300 fps at 500 yards, really doubt that it was 1100 or more at 1000.

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Offline gyrene81

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2011, 10:23:24 PM »
...um...where are you getting this, gyrene?  I show 8x57 as less than 1300 fps at 500 yards, really doubt that it was 1100 or more at 1000.

- oldman
well...among others...this is one reference i found back when i was still doing weapons modding for CoD...the luftwaffe version of the 7.92 used the same weight projectile but had a higher velocity than the standard infantry rifle round but i think the ballistics shown are still valid...

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/scoped-k98k-mosin-nagant-range-13601-6.html

and one i used as a starting point...

http://www.weaponwiki.org/7.92x57_mm_Mauser_Specs
jarhed  
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Offline Plazus

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2011, 11:31:46 PM »
If you guys want the easy way in this setup, fly the 110. Has lots of cannons, not to mention they are nose mounted, so convergence isn't an issue. You have two engines, and can turn very well with flaps. Also, since the 110 is big, it is harder to take down unless you aim for the pilot. Also, by fighting in the vertical, you can force the Hurris and Spits to stall their engine out nose-high. Then the rest just plays out in your favor. :)
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2011, 08:41:31 AM »
well...among others...this is one reference i found back when i was still doing weapons modding for CoD...the luftwaffe version of the 7.92 used the same weight projectile but had a higher velocity than the standard infantry rifle round but i think the ballistics shown are still valid...

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/scoped-k98k-mosin-nagant-range-13601-6.html

and one i used as a starting point...

http://www.weaponwiki.org/7.92x57_mm_Mauser_Specs

Interesting, but perplexing.  According to these sources the Germans were loading 197 grain .311 bullets with nearly unbelievable ballistic coefficients to almost 2500 fps muzzle velocity.  I certainly don't have any contrary sources, other than to note that these were much hotter loads than factory ammunition today. 

Learned something interesting, gyrene, thanks, will study further and will stop hijacking this thread!

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Offline Krusty

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2011, 08:54:59 AM »
You cannot compare a high powered, bolt-operated, sniper rifle of the same caliber with a fully automated machine gun. The two are not comparable in the least.

A bullet is not a bullet. A gun is not a gun. They're not all the same.

That bolt alone allows greater power in the chamber, as none of it is translated into rearward motion to push the spring backwards.

Here's the wiki data on the MG17 machine gun:

SpecificationsCalibre: 7.92 +/- .04 mm
Cartridge: 7.92x57 mm Mauser
Round weight: 35.5 grams (cartridge 24 grams, bullet 11.5 grams)
Muzzle velocity: from 855 m/s (Phosphor "B" round ) to 905 m/s (Armor Piercing Tracer "SmK L'spur" round)
Rate of fire: 1200 rpm
Dimensions

Length: 1175 mm
Weight: 10.2 kg
Action: Recoil
Feed system: Belt magazine


At the muzzle (0 yards) it's only doing 855 (or 905) m/s. At 200 yards it's less. At 400 yards much less.

Offline gyrene81

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2011, 09:32:58 AM »
krusty...855 METERS/second = 2805 FEET/second...905 METERS/second = 2969 FEET/second...like i mentioned, the luftwaffe ammo used hotter powder loads that was not allowed in the infantry weapons.

of course the formulas only give approximations based on known factors, but much more accurate than the guesstimations being tossed around here...
jarhed  
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Offline Krusty

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2011, 10:22:28 AM »
Ahh, you were using fpm... I see. I thought you were saying 1100 m/s!!!!

Offline gyrene81

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2011, 10:43:11 AM »
Ahh, you were using fpm... I see. I thought you were saying 1100 m/s!!!!
:lol i admit to being a real dummy at times but...sheesh...  :confused:
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline Atticus4

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2011, 11:46:14 AM »
Or [instead of all of these logic and scientific posts] maybe the pilot of the Hurri was just wiley enough to prevent his bird from being critically hit.   :x

Offline captain1ma

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2011, 12:26:18 PM »
Wiley? i believe they call that "stick stirring"!     :D

Offline Chilli

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Re: shoot downs in AvA
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2011, 05:09:00 PM »
That is "Rocket on a stick" stirring to you sir!