yak 9T/ turret's syndrome

[Karnak]

HTC has said that the damage structures take does not translate literally to unit damage.  The models are very different.

[bustr]

Offline I tested the NS-37 based on the idea it had AP-T ammo which had no explosive content in it. My reasoning was that at even a 880M/sec at 200 yards offline it would only punch holes in the cons airframe unless the engine or pilot was hit. Seemed to do just that.

880M/sec with a 7ft 1:16 rifling barrel should be rather accurate to 200 yards regardless of the round size even at 735-760g. The long pointed ogive at 880-900M/sec should make the first 3 rounds 200 yards and closer very accurate.

I found the single MK108 offline at 100-200yds to be more destrucitve more often than the number of 37mm rounds I had to expend to hit or even kill cons offline. If the NS-37 is HE or HE-I with a similar contact explosive response to the Oldsmobile T9 or M4 37mm autocannon. The M4 HE round when it contacts an offline drone is devastating along with ony being a 600M/sec round. The NS-37 round acts like an AP-T kinetic round. Unlike the MK108 Minengeschoss Leuchtspur mit Zerleger (day tracer) which a single contact obviously blows something apart offline. The NS-37 round did not act like the Minengeschoss on every contact. It seemed to puch holes on some. And others a flash like explosion.

I performed 200 yard dispersion grid comparisons offline with the two autocannon. Each had the expected mapping per intial velocity and gun barrel design proportionaly to the AH universe. The MK108 exploded things on contact, the NS-37 took a few more rounds and not every contact was an explosion.

Is our NS-37 round a hybrid for the sake of game play? Wirbel cuppola should be like cheeze to the 880M/sec AP-T kinteic round from behind. Penetrated 50mm of armor at 200m. Or if it's the HE, one inside of the cuppola should kill the gunner crew. It would be nice to have the contact HE explosivness of the M4's HE round against other aircraft. Especialy with the expected better accuracy of the NS-37 at 900M/sec versus the MK108 500M/sec.

Wirbelwind Turret Armor in Millimeters

Hull Front----Upper 80@10° 
Hull Front----Lower 80@12° 
Hull Sides----Upper 30@0° 
Hull Sides----Lower 30@0° 
Hull Rear-----20@11°1 & 20@9° 
Hull Top------12@85°-90° 
Hull Bottom--10@90° 
Turret Front--16@25°1
Gun shield: 10 round1 
Turret Sides--16@36° 
Turret Rear---16@12°-22° 
Turret Top Open 

 

[SmokinLoon]

Offline I tested the NS-37 based on the idea it had AP-T ammo which had no explosive content in it. My reasoning was that at even a 880M/sec at 200 yards offline it would only punch holes in the cons airframe unless the engine or pilot was hit. Seemed to do just that.

The NS-37 round did not act like the Minengeschoss on every contact. It seemed to puch holes on some. And others a flash like explosion.

I performed 200 yard dispersion grid comparisons offline with the two autocannon. Each had the expected mapping per intial velocity and gun barrel design proportionaly to the AH universe. The MK108 exploded things on contact, the NS-37 took a few more rounds and not every contact was an explosion.

Is our NS-37 round a hybrid for the sake of game play?
 

Maybe someone from HTC would be willing to make a statement on the issue???   

[bustr]

Just finished some offline testing.

MK108 - 109K4
M4/37 - P39Q
NS-37-Yak9T

Dispersion Grid 10mil squares. 10mil@100 not equal 10mil@150 or 200.

plane-----100-----150-----200---yards
109------4x2.5----2x2-----3x4---HxW
P39-------1x2---2.5x2.5---2x2
Yak------.5x1.5--.75x2-----2x2

Hits to kill aircraft at 200 yards. 5 kills per aircraft. Single shot instances, full zoom, cumulative till destruction from 6 o'clock.

plane-----190A5-----110C-----B24J
109---------1----------1--------5 to 8---HE 500m/sec
P39---------1----------1--------5 to 8---HE 600-610m/sec
Yak-------1 to 2-------1--------8 to 10--HE 900m/sec, AP-T 880m/sec

Observations

1. Both the MK108 and M4 are tollerant to poor aiming at 200 yards. At 500m/s and 600m/s a bit more forgiving.

2. NS-37 requires precise aim or rounds will pass right next to the con.

3. All 3 were one shot kills on fighters except for the following observations:

-a. The 110C would explode being hit in the tail by any of the three. 1 round impact.
-b. The FW would loose a whole wing or explode 50% of the time when hit in the wing root by the NS-37. 110 exploded every time in W/root.
-c. More average destruction took place on the B24 being shot by the MK108 and M4-HE than the NS-37.
-d. 110 could be cropped of its wings by hitting at the engine or working in from the tips to the engine. Closer in killed the 110 single round.

Conclusion:

1. Aim sharper with the NS-37 in air to air combat. Shoots like a lazer at 200 yards plane to plane.
2. We have either an HE or hybrid round.
3. The HE was a fragmentation type. Should be seeing more damage to an airframe.
4. Testing showed a single HE to kill a Ju87 sized aircraft and two for a Ju88 or He111 sized aircraft.

[bustr]

Russian testing was performed on a Ju87 and Ju88 with the HE rounds. So far only one source on the internet says 1 round to kill the 87 and 2 for the 88.

I performed testing offline again to this end. I added the Il2 since the Yak9T is supposed to be shooting NS-37 HE-I, the Il2 shot AP-T for killing tanks. All testing was at 200 and I set the Il2 to 650 and made contact with the gun only on one side. 5 kills per plane set by each aircraft.

Aircraft ----Ju87--Ju88-----B24
109K4-------1----3 to 5---5 to 8---rounds to kill aircraft
Yak9T--------1----5 to 8---8 to 10
Il2-----------1----3 to 5---5 to 8

Observations

1. The MK108 seems to have a superior blast to the NS-37 HE. Could blow Ju88 wings off with one hit.
2. The NS-37 in the Il2 required fewer rounds than the YakT NS-37 to kill bombers. Took 2 rounds from the Yak to break off the Ju88 wing at root.
3. The IL2 NS-37 showed HE type explosions against aluminum and took fewer rounds to wreck a bomber.
4. The MK108 is more accurate at 200 yards than the NS-37, or is more forgiving of bad aim even though it has worse dispersion.

Conclusion

I'm not quite sure what to think.

If the NS-37 in the Yak9T is HE it should create more damage to an aluminum aircraft structure than an AP-T round. The MK108 and M4/HE abviously do. The NS-37 AP-T round was a kinetic impact round with no explosive content. The HE round in the NS-37 was similar in construction to the anti-aricraft M1939 HE-T round. About 34g of A-IX-2 or TNT.
-------
Found this here:

The two basic types of projectiles were:
OFZ, High Explosive Incendiary, weight 735 grams, muzzle speed 890 mps.
BT, Armor piercing with tracer, 753 grams. Ballistic cap, without any kind of incendiary or explosive filling. Muzzle velocity 870 m/s.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?5365-Soviet-Aircraft-Weapons./page5

[SmokinLoon]

Good findings, bustr.

HTC???  A word or two of explanation?      

[BoilerDown]

4. The MK108 is more accurate at 200 yards than the NS-37, or is more forgiving of bad aim even though it has worse dispersion.

As a fan of the Yak-9, and as someone that loses about 95% of the time to the K4 in a fair fight, this has really got me scratching my head.  Are you saying that the MK108 rounds score hits even when they should miss? 

Are you sure it isn't a shotgun effect?  Perhaps if you fire a three round burst, if the aim is poor but the dispersion is high, you may still get a hit on one of the three and still cause tater-esque catastrophic damage. 

On the other hand, if the aim is poor and the dispersion is low and fire three rounds, all three may miss because all three go to the same location, which isn't where the aircraft is.

If the shotgun effect is the reason, then there's no need to raise the alarm, its working as it should.  However if you're testing with single shots, and the MK108 scores hits on what should be misses, or the NS-37 scores misses on what should be hits, then we have a problem.

[Babalonian]

As a fan of the Yak-9, and as someone that loses about 95% of the time to the K4 in a fair fight, this has really got me scratching my head.  Are you saying that the MK108 rounds score hits even when they should miss? 

Are you sure it isn't a shotgun effect?  Perhaps if you fire a three round burst, if the aim is poor but the dispersion is high, you may still get a hit on one of the three and still cause tater-esque catastrophic damage. 

On the other hand, if the aim is poor and the dispersion is low and fire three rounds, all three may miss because all three go to the same location, which isn't where the aircraft is.

If the shotgun effect is the reason, then there's no need to raise the alarm, its working as it should.  However if you're testing with single shots, and the MK108 scores hits on what should be misses, or the NS-37 scores misses on what should be hits, then we have a problem.

I believe Bustr is saying that where the Mk108 is over-modeled in this game (more balisticaly acurate than it historicaly was) the NS-37 is more acuratley modeled, thus resulting in a more-than-historicaly accurate Mk108 that is slightly more accurate than it histroicaly was at 200m compared to the NS-37 both in-game and in the real world at 200m.

[bustr]

The NS-37 high intitial velocity is accuratly modeled. It shoots like a lazer at 880M/sec. So is the ShVAK/20 790M/sec in the Yak9U. Players are holding too much lead and too much elevation for the high intitial velocities. At 200yds the NS-37 drops only 6inches. The ShVak/20 9inches.

I created a very accurat PBP1 gunsight with 4 stadia marks out from center on each cross at every 4 mil. The 2nd and 4th were 4x longer than the first and 3rd creating a box around the center at 8mil unzoomed. I removed a 10pixel circle in the center of this because full zoom it's too buzy. Funny how all of your rounds will fall into that box at every range out to 400 yards.

 At 200 behind the Ju88 I went to max zoom and discovered in the traffic patterns left hand turn I had to aim holding off with the first long tick at 8mil and up with an 4mil tick. From 400 yards elevation was still about 10mil and depending on where in the 6-cone I was, I held over to the left. Rounds just shoot too fast and slip right past the con. Still think the HE is under modeled for this cannon.

In the K4 using a Revi16b with a 100mil ring with cross. Stadi ticks every 35pixels or 17mil. At 200 aiming is very comfortable to the aircrafts travel. You are naturaly held over to the left and the elevation at 200 and 400 starts at about 9mil and progresses to 17mil. In the game the Mk108 is easier to aim because you see the tracer flair longer. Dispersion at 200yds is 14ft with a 3ft drop. But then my target was a Ju88 with a 65ft wingspan. Hard to miss at 200 yards with anything one would think.

But then seeing is beleiving with the NS-37 at 200 if you are not aware of it's lazer like proclivities. Even holding the trigger down shows the same missing unless you are aware of the need to aim with a microscope. Try a fighter from 200 offline. You would think with the high intitial M/Sec your ability to correct 1 of 3 rounds that close would give you a hit the majority of 3 round attempts. The MK108 single gun instance is very forgiving in the same circumstance against a fighter at 200 yards.

This kind of leaves me confused. With auto guns a higher velocity and lower dispersion value means easier target correction and chances of hits. Especially from the 6-cone at equalised speeds. Granted the real NS-37 in a Yak9T could only be fired in 3 round bursts. I did correct for that in my 200 yard fighter tests. Most militaires today are finding 3-4 round controlled bursts give you better accuracy over spray and pray.

All shooting was performed with single shots except where noted.

[bustr]

By the way...are we using these rounds in our NS-37?

armor-piercing - tracer (BZT-E) AP-T
fragmentation- tracer (OZT-E) HE-T <--34-37g TNT, this should be destroying Ju88 wings single hit.

The MK108 3 cm Minengeschoss Leuchtspur mit Zerleger (day tracer) relys on cuncussion because of it's very thin wall. The OZT-E along with concussion is purpose built to fragment. Sorta like the american pinapple grenade's design. More results from a small package. Afterall it's preaty much an ack-ack gun repurposed into an aircraft. The rounds are constructed very similar to the M1939 ACK gun rounds but with shorter shell casings to help control recoil and over all length. Hey, sounds like the MK108.......

So is the IL2 firing HE-T also in a mixed magazine since a kinetic only armor peircer should not cause fires for the most part in any aricraft it hits? Regardless, all of the NS-37 rounds should have a tracer in the tail. Not every 2nd or 3rd. Russian production was an either or kind of thing.

[bustr]

Some updated armor testing. Single shots 100-200 yards on zoom. 5 kills per vehical. Il2 aimed favoring right wing cannon.

Rounds to kill armored vehical.

-----------------M3-------------M8--------------IL2
MK108/K4-----3-engine------4-mid-rear------1-3
NS37/9T-------2-any----------2-any-----------3
NS37/Il2------1-3-any--------3-4-any--------2-4

So again I'm confused. Both of these NS-37 mountings are enough as a single shot to take out an M3 or M8 due to their high velocity in the engine compartment or crew compartment. 880-900M/sec. They are purpose designed to drasticly effect solid objects like 18-40mm steel. The only problem the russians found with them was being accurate at close enough distances to hit the ground vehicals. The rounds were devistating from 400 in to point blank range if they made contact. The OZT-E tore up aircraft and anything lightly armored or protected.

armor-piercing - tracer (BZT-E) AP-T
fragmentation- tracer (OZT-E) HE-T

The MK108 3 cm Minengeschoss Leuchtspur mit Zerleger (day tracer) at 500M/sec is purpose designed to penetrate aluminum aircraft skin and cause damage via an explosive concusion charge. The thin steel walls of the round cannot support armor penetration. And I cannot find reference to the round being a purposful fragmentation design like the NS-37 OZT-E round. I can see the M3 crew being wounded or killed by the concussion on the outside of the open topped vehical. I'm not sure about an M8 buttened up.

Again the MK108 rounds seemed very forgiving of poor aim while the NS-37 rounds needed the aid of brain surgeon and an electron microsocope.

[Imowface]

The NS-37 is imho, the best air to air cannon in the game by a longshot, as shot at 1k to 1.5k are very very doable, I have HO'ed a 110 at 1.5k destroying him before he was in rocket range, the trick is to take 1 shot at a time, and when the con is 400-200 out, use only about 2 mm of lead on your screen

and if you are using the NS-37 on the Yak-9 on any armour bigger then an M3 or 251, you are just waisting ammo

[bustr]

My testing was on light armor. If you noticed.

Yak9T was loaded with fragmentation- tracer (OZT-E). I get the impression the IL2 may have been loaded with a mixed magazine of BZT-E and OZT-E. Russian testing showed OZT-E to still have a potent explosive effect on 18mm armor. Or, it should have been one shot killing the M3. If our 3.7 Falk 43 in our Ostwind is the same gun as our manned ack positions. Manned ack one shot kills the M3 at 200 yards with an HE type round. Granted it's probably a 1100M/sec class round. The OZT-E was an 890-900M/sec class round.

I'm going to perform some dispersion value testing for MG151/20 motorkanone versus the ShVAK/20 autocannon at 200 yards. Based on the grid box values I'm going to create a gunsight based on those boxes and perform single shot tests offline on fighters and the Ju88 from 200 yards. I'll review my dispersion grids for the Mk108 and NS-37 towards a similar gunsight.

I'm thinking the dispersion grid values directly effect how forgiving of your aim the matrix is at 200 yards. Unlike in the real world, wide dispersion values from a single shot means you can't hit a bull in the kester at any range. Add to that all the vibration from the airframe along with the micro bumps inherit in flight.....make it the Bizmark. I shouldn't have as much trouble hitting a Ju88 at 200yards as happens offline with the NS-37 in single shot mode. The MK108 rounds act like they have aluminum seeking warheads on them for such a high dispersion value slow round.