Author Topic: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review  (Read 6541 times)

Offline Belial

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1589
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2011, 12:48:42 PM »
I can vouch for that also.  I lost ailerons in a VERY shallow dive.  IAS was less than 325 MPH.  TAS was lees than 350. 

Methinks there are bugs to be ironed out with this bird.  No way should you be losing control surfaces in such a manner.

Something else which happened to me.  I jumped to another plane to get a better targeting solution on a bandit. When I went back to the #1 plane, I could not see any of my instruments.   I was no longer in the pilots seat. Any of them.


I had this happen offline.

Offline Squire

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7683
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2011, 01:46:37 PM »
Re B-29 low level alts: The incindiery bomb raids were conducted at night from alts of @5000-9000 feet. Japanese flak and night fighters were nowhere near as effective as the Luftwaffes and so the losses were judged to be within reasonable %. The first such raid mass raid were done in March 1945. The benefits were; fewer fighters intercepting and much greater damage to the targets compared to high alt day raids with conventional HE loads.

Re IJ fighters: We have 4 IJ fighters in AH that saw action vs B-29s; Ki-84, N1K2, Ki-61 and A6M5 all served in home defence units in 1945.

The two best performing Japanese fighters in WW2 were the Ki-84 and N1K2-J. The only fighter that comes anywhere close to those two that we dont have in AH is the J2M Raiden and looking at the #s I don't see it as very different in capabilities. The Ki-45...it did have a 37mm cannon in the nose but it was a good 30-40 mph slower than any of the previous mentioned. So if you can get close enough with a Ki-45 and land some cannon rounds you might do some damage but with a max speed of @340 mph at alt its painfully slow vs a B-29 Superfortress. Its slower than an A6M5.

None of the Japanese fighters were really suited to making high alt intercepts against fast, large, high flying strategic bombers. Not compared to what the Luftwaffe had in 1944-45. That being said, they did the best they could with what they had. Had they had access to 100 octane fuel, and had a large reserve of trained pilots, and had enough logistics and supplies to keep them operational they would have done much better vs the B-29 raids.  

In closing if anybody is waiting for a Japanese fighter in AH that is going to zoom up to engage a B-29 and is just "way better" than a Ki-84 or an N1K2...there is no such fighter forthcoming. The J2M is "about as good" as those two with a slightly better climb rate but its slower than a Ki-84. Its armament is the same as an N1K2 (4 x 20mm). Not saying we should not get the Raiden, I think we should as AH is about having the WW2 planes they flew and I would welcome it to the lineup. Same with the Ki-45, add it just dont be surprised a its very average speed and climb.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 02:26:45 PM by Squire »
Warloc
Friday Squad Ops CM Team
1841 Squadron Fleet Air Arm
Aces High since Tour 24

Offline Muzzy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1402
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2011, 03:18:40 PM »
Was it me?  First day it was out, about 16k alt over A24. I saw a spit and LA7 behind me. :D

It may well have been you.  I might have the film so I'll check.  Were you firing out of the tail gun?


CO 111 Sqdn Black Arrows

Wng Cdr, No. 2 Tactical Bomber Group, RAF, "Today's Target" Scenario. "You maydie, but you will not be bored!"

Offline dstrip2

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 57
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2011, 03:33:47 PM »
nice post squire.

i still think these things are just 'flammable bettys', i hit one online last night with maybe 3 20mm rounds and it burned. was my first combat flight in that plane so i know i didnt hit it well.

a capably flown german plane in game is capable of intercepting the b29

Offline mipoikel

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3521
      • http://www.llv32.org
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2011, 04:06:04 PM »
It may well have been you.  I might have the film so I'll check.  Were you firing out of the tail gun?
yep, didnt hit anything with it. :)
I am a spy!

Offline 1Boner

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2285
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2011, 06:45:01 PM »
Re B-29 low level alts: The incindiery bomb raids were conducted at night from alts of @5000-9000 feet. Japanese flak and night fighters were nowhere near as effective as the Luftwaffes and so the losses were judged to be within reasonable %. The first such raid mass raid were done in March 1945. The benefits were; fewer fighters intercepting and much greater damage to the targets compared to high alt day raids with conventional HE loads.

Re IJ fighters: We have 4 IJ fighters in AH that saw action vs B-29s; Ki-84, N1K2, Ki-61 and A6M5 all served in home defence units in 1945.

The two best performing Japanese fighters in WW2 were the Ki-84 and N1K2-J. The only fighter that comes anywhere close to those two that we dont have in AH is the J2M Raiden and looking at the #s I don't see it as very different in capabilities. The Ki-45...it did have a 37mm cannon in the nose but it was a good 30-40 mph slower than any of the previous mentioned. So if you can get close enough with a Ki-45 and land some cannon rounds you might do some damage but with a max speed of @340 mph at alt its painfully slow vs a B-29 Superfortress. Its slower than an A6M5.

None of the Japanese fighters were really suited to making high alt intercepts against fast, large, high flying strategic bombers. Not compared to what the Luftwaffe had in 1944-45. That being said, they did the best they could with what they had. Had they had access to 100 octane fuel, and had a large reserve of trained pilots, and had enough logistics and supplies to keep them operational they would have done much better vs the B-29 raids.  

In closing if anybody is waiting for a Japanese fighter in AH that is going to zoom up to engage a B-29 and is just "way better" than a Ki-84 or an N1K2...there is no such fighter forthcoming. The J2M is "about as good" as those two with a slightly better climb rate but its slower than a Ki-84. Its armament is the same as an N1K2 (4 x 20mm). Not saying we should not get the Raiden, I think we should as AH is about having the WW2 planes they flew and I would welcome it to the lineup. Same with the Ki-45, add it just dont be surprised a its very average speed and climb.

KI-84lb might be a little more useful than the standard KI-84
"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline pembquist

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1928
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2011, 07:35:37 PM »
If memory serves, it was SOP to depressurize the plane before entering the target area.

- oldman

My understanding is that you are correct but that, being crewed by immortal 20 year olds and liking the flying in shirtsleeves and no oxygen, most planes flew combat pressurized.  This is from a video interview with a crew. Take it for what its worth.
Pies not kicks.

Offline Stoney

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3482
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2011, 08:09:37 PM »
I think I remember reading this same comment and someone with technical experience, or who read cumulative practical reports, replying that shouldn't be reason enough.  Were any of the other bombers in AH designed this way?

Most of the U.S. radial engines used during the war used magnesium components to save weight.  That includes the R-2800 that's on the F6F, F4U, and P-47, among others.  It wasn't a problem with magnesium in the engine.  It was that the way they designed the cowling for the engines restricted air flow to the rear cylinders of the engine, and at high-power, low speed conditions, the cylinder head temps would go sky-high.  The resulting high temperatures would cause valve failure, which in turn could create catastrophic engine failure.  The resulting fires could be so hot as to ignite the magnesium engine parts, which would in turn burn so hot so that they quickly damaged the wing spar, which was very close to the back of the engine compartment.  So, as has been discussed in other threads, it wasn't a problem with magnesium, it was a problem with engine cooling.

And, with regard to IJA aircraft performance vs. B-29s, remember that they would strip down the aircraft, removing armor, radio equipment, small-caliber weaponry, etc. and use these lightened aircraft to attack the bombers.  So, our in-game IJA aircraft should perform worse at the same altitudes, as did those that were used to attack B-29s during the war.  In another thread, Baumer posted the B-29 operational loss numbers and a mere fraction were lost to fighter intercept.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

HiTech

Offline W7LPNRICK

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2050
      • Ham Radio Antenna Experiments
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2011, 01:58:18 AM »
To be honest, B-29 was known to catch fire. I'll have to wait till I get home to find the exact passage, but something around the engine was made out of magnesium to save weight.  Unfortunately for the aircrews, magnesium is extremely flammable.

Oh yes...I saw a Korean Pilot run an F-4D (Magnesium Brake housing?) off the runway into to rice patties cause the brakes were on fire. It kept from destroying the entire craft minus landing gear. The brakes burned under water & mud for over an hour. Why would you make a part known to get hot out of Mg?  :huh
WildWzl
Ft Bragg Jump School-USAF Kunsan AB, Korea- Clark AB P.I.- Korat, Thailand-Tinker AFB Ok.- Mtn Home AFB Idaho
F-86's, F-4D, F-4G, F-5E Tiger II, C-130, UH-1N (Twin Engine Hueys) O-2's. E3A awacs, F-111, FB-111, EF-111,

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16330
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2011, 09:40:40 AM »
Thanks Stoney.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Stoney

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3482
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2011, 10:02:14 AM »
Why would you make a part known to get hot out of Mg?  :huh

Because (1) it saves weight over other alloys and (2) as long as its operated within the design specs of the system, its perfectly safe.  You go kick tires down at your local airport, and almost 100% of the wheels on those aircraft are made out of magnesium alloy.  The rotors (the part that gets hot) are made out of steel typically.

I'll keep screaming this until the community internalizes it--magnesium engine accessory cases were not an issue on the B-29.  Cylinder cooling, cylinder cooling, cylinder cooling was the problem.  Otherwise, every American aircraft that used a radial engine would have displayed the same characteristics. 
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

HiTech

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2011, 01:56:39 PM »
None of the planes you suggested could catch and kill B29s was Japanese.

- oldman

The Japanese really didn't have an interceptor that was fully capable of intercepting the B-29s when flying at high altitudes (30,000 - 33,000ft), the Raiden was the most successful of the interceptors when engaging at high altitude and even then the Raiden struggled.


Oldman -

We also don't have any of the Japanese fighters that were used to attack the B-29s when they flew high.  I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed by this update.  Only new plane is the B-29, which will end up seeing next to no use.  Not even useful for scenarios, since we don't have the Japanese planeset to go against it. I keep thinking every new update is going to be the "big one" with some Russian or Japanese planes to fill the chasms in the planeset.


Even if we did have planes like the Raiden or Ki-100, they would still struggle intercepting B-29s at high altitude, just like they did in real life.

In RL history, Curtis Lemay ordered the B-29s to low altitude incendiary bombing raids due to poor high altitude high-explosive bomb accuracy, and because Japanese cites of the 1940's were highly flammable.


EDIT: context added

LeMay ordered that incendiary bombs also be used and not their exclusive use.  For night time raids, the first B-29 group over the target would be the pathfinders dropping their flares, the 2nd group would be carrying incendiaries to mark the saturation area and the remaining groups would usually be loaded with either general purpose or general purpose (Composit B) 500 pound bombs.  Sometimes, some bombers would have a mix of incendiary and general purpose but that all depended on the mission parameters and target.

Bombing accuracy from high altitude wasn't the only reason the bombers were ordered lower.  B-29s groups taking off from the recently captured islands in the Pacific would have to fly against the Jet Stream on the way to the target and taxed the engines and significantly shortened their life span and increased the likelihood of engine malfunction.  People tend not to realize that wind speeds up in the Jet Stream could reach speeds up to 250mph.  B-29 crews flying out of India and China faced the same problem but on the return leg of the portion over Japan, increasing the time spent over enemy territory.

another interesting point that probably isn't modeled in the 29...when you punch holes in a thermos...it makes for explosive problems...pressurization problems would require them to drop below 10k and make for a very long flight home...

After switching to low level bombing raids, B-29s regularly flew below 10,000ft to and from the target.  The only exceptions would be those on the top of the "stair step" formation and that would usually be during the attack run to and from the target.  The average bombing altitude for the low level raids (both night time and daylight formation raids) was between 4,500ft - 15,000ft.  It was also very common that cruising altitudes was 400ft for the group at the bottom of the step formation and 1,200ft for the group at the top of the step.

No... he ordered them "lower." Low alt means below 15k. LeMay ordered the bombers "down" to 23k.

No, LeMay ordered the bombers to fly at very low altitudes enroute to the target and then low altitude bombing runs.  He didn't just order them to fly a few thousand feet lower.  This not only ordered for night time bombing raids but also for the daylight formation raids because LeMay wanted to send the bombers to Japan with maximum bomb loads and that was not possible if ordered to fly higher.  Like I mentioned in my comment above, en route to the target the group comprosing the bottom step of the formation would be at 400 feet while the group making the top of the step would be at 1,200ft.  Then on the bombing run, they would then climb to their low altitude bomb run, which again depending on the groups position in the formation, could be as low as 4,300 feet or as high as 15,000 feet.

For example, on the March 10 night raid over Tokyo the first group came in and bombed from 5,300ft and the top group came in and bombed from 12,300ft.  

Re B-29 low level alts: The incindiery bomb raids were conducted at night from alts of @5000-9000 feet. Japanese flak and night fighters were nowhere near as effective as the Luftwaffes and so the losses were judged to be within reasonable %. The first such raid mass raid were done in March 1945. The benefits were; fewer fighters intercepting and much greater damage to the targets compared to high alt day raids with conventional HE loads.

Incendiary bombs were also used in the low level daylight formation raids and as mentioned earlier, the night time missions didn't just drop Incendiary bombs, general purpose bombs were used as well.

Japanese flak was effective at night, though at first with the change of tactics to low level bombing raids it did take a short period of the time for the Japanese gunners to adapt.  Soon patterns in the B-29s bombing runs started to emerge (like speed, direction, altitudes) and the flak fire started to increase in accuracy and more B-29s started to get shot down or receive damage from flaks, particularly 40mm AA fire.  The Japanese also would target either individual B-29s or flights caught in their searchlights instead of firing rolling flak barrages.  

As for Japanese night interceptors...sometimes they would take off in large numbers, other times in very small numbers or not at all.  When they would take off to intercept, they were most likely to tail the formation if they made visual contact and report their speed, altitude and heading to the flak batteries and often not press the attack.  Also, a lot of B-29 crews would report seeing night fighters but the fighters were flying as though they were in a hunting pattern looking for them and this was mostly attributed to the lack of radar on the Japanese night fighters and they were visually looking for the glow of the B-29's exhaust stacks.  In one night mission, a B-29 crew reported seeing close to 20 night fighters all milling around but not engaging until they were over the target and illuminated by the glow of the flames from the burning target and then only 1 fighter dove to intercept but the pilot didn't see if it was destroyed by the tail gunner on the B-29 that was being attacked or by a 40mm flak burst.

ack-ack
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 02:05:41 PM by Ack-Ack »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Squire

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7683
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2011, 04:38:46 PM »
Something to add here as well...little has been mentioned of the ramming attacks made vs B-29s. These were common. Not exclusive but they were done or attempted frequently enough by IJAAF units in a variety of types, the Ki-45 being among them. Lacking aircraft of high alt performance and trained pilots I guess its not surprising. Even the Luftwaffe raised Fw 190 'Rammjager' units that were formed for similar tactics late in the war (1944) although I think perhaps they had a somewhat less fatalistic outlook as the IJAAF pilots, presumabley they were to attempt a ram attack if all else failed and to bail out and survive the sortie to fight another day. Dangerous as it was I get the impression that few of the IJAAF crews that rammed survived the attack.
Warloc
Friday Squad Ops CM Team
1841 Squadron Fleet Air Arm
Aces High since Tour 24

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2011, 05:57:49 PM »
Something to add here as well...little has been mentioned of the ramming attacks made vs B-29s. These were common. Not exclusive but they were done or attempted frequently enough by IJAAF units in a variety of types, the Ki-45 being among them. Lacking aircraft of high alt performance and trained pilots I guess its not surprising. Even the Luftwaffe raised Fw 190 'Rammjager' units that were formed for similar tactics late in the war (1944) although I think perhaps they had a somewhat less fatalistic outlook as the IJAAF pilots, presumabley they were to attempt a ram attack if all else failed and to bail out and survive the sortie to fight another day. Dangerous as it was I get the impression that few of the IJAAF crews that rammed survived the attack.


As was dropping WP bombs over the B-29s, something I didn't know the Japanese did and thought it was only the Germans that tried it.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline MORAY37

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2318
Re: Muzzy's Preliminary B29 Review
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2011, 01:26:57 PM »
KI-84lb might be a little more useful than the standard KI-84

Or a ki84 without a fuel handicap.  <cough>
"Ocean: A body of water occupying 2/3 of a world made for man...who has no gills."
-Ambrose Bierce