Author Topic: P47 vs 190  (Read 19121 times)

Offline drgondog

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2011, 10:28:37 AM »
 
4) it doesn't dump its 'e' as fast as a 109s...

LOL! Really? Dude... it's got a massive radial speed brake up front. Chop throttle and you lose E like mad. It's the overshoot king.
Both the the FW 190A and D airframe have less parasite drag than the Spit IX and Me 109G - significantly less.  Only the 51 has less than the Fw 190.  So, why would the 'speedbrake effect' be more, or even equal, to the Spit and 109?
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Offline moot

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2011, 10:30:52 AM »
Because of the practical aerodynamics.  Probably not unrelated to spitfires' better sustained turn performance than 109s' and 190s'
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Offline drgondog

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2011, 10:37:32 AM »
Its never about wing loading.  Its about power available versus power required.  That requires some pretty extensive math, which most are not interested in either (1) learning about or (2) taking the time to perform.  This is the main reason that a 190 is much more competitive with a Jug at low altitude than at high altitudes.
Stoney W/S is important in all manuever performance equations, specifically in turn rates and radius and climb performance.  All other factors equal it is the deciding factor.

Rmin is direcly proportional to W/S, OMEGAmin (turn radius) is inversely proportional to W/S, Corner Speed is proportional to SQRT(W/S), Max N is inversely proportional to W/S (independent of actual structural integrity as an a/c could have a CLmax which would combine to push it over the edge - stress wise)
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Offline drgondog

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2011, 10:41:35 AM »
Because of the practical aerodynamics.  Probably not unrelated to spitfires' better sustained turn performance than 109s' and 190s'
Can you help me out by explaining why 'practical aerodynamics' over rules real aerodynamics? 

The Fw 190 simply has less drag - meaning it requires less thrust to maintain a velocity state of equilibrium.

I don't think the 190 Has 'better sustained turn performance' than the Spit or 109.. apparently the Luftwaffe  test team at Rechlin didn't believe it did either.
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Offline FLS

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2011, 10:54:49 AM »
You misread it. He said the Spitfire has the better sustained turn.

Offline Krusty

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #65 on: March 03, 2011, 11:41:25 AM »
Drgondog I don't know if you're right or even looking at it the right/wrong way. I would simply suggest "Try it out for yourself" and leave it at that.


I of course speak from in-game experience, not real-world math.

Offline moot

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2011, 11:58:20 AM »
Can you help me out by explaining why 'practical aerodynamics' over rules real aerodynamics? 
Sure:
I might've been totally wrong (shooting from the hip) but not for reason you think

1) I didn't say practical aerodynamics overrules real aerodynamics, and wouldn't have in the sense you think
1b) Practical aero does overrule real because AH is not real.
1c) I meant that in practice the 190 aerodynamics are such that they airbrake about as easily (if not more, it depends on specific circumstances) as spitfires and 109s, as was the context you replied to (Krusty's point relative to overshooting IE maneuverability in dogfights' the context), even if admittedly sloppily (harder to hold on departure).  That said, this assertion (which doesn't follow the strict sense Krusty seems to have been arguing : strictly air braking with throttle off in coordinated flight
2) All it takes is to go in game and compare 190 versus 109/spitfire (for air braking in the sense I meant), all canted as far sideways (yaw and/or pitch) as they'll go at various speeds/alts.  The 190s, the 152 esp., should airbrake competitively with spits and 109s; although now that I think about it I'm not so sure.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2011, 12:01:15 PM »
Can you help me out by explaining why 'practical aerodynamics' over rules real aerodynamics? 

The Fw 190 simply has less drag - meaning it requires less thrust to maintain a velocity state of equilibrium.

I don't think the 190 Has 'better sustained turn performance' than the Spit or 109.. apparently the Luftwaffe  test team at Rechlin didn't believe it did either.

Drgondog, I think he's talking about the fact that the 190, when introduced into very high alpha maneuvers, bleeds its airspeed very quickly--quicker than most aircraft in the game.  My in-game experience is that if maneuvers are restricted to very low alpha, it retains its energy very well, which would be consistent with an aircraft that has very low zero-lift drag, and very high wing loading.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2011, 12:11:44 PM »
Stoney W/S is important in all manuever performance equations, specifically in turn rates and radius and climb performance.  All other factors equal it is the deciding factor.

Rmin is direcly proportional to W/S, OMEGAmin (turn radius) is inversely proportional to W/S, Corner Speed is proportional to SQRT(W/S), Max N is inversely proportional to W/S (independent of actual structural integrity as an a/c could have a CLmax which would combine to push it over the edge - stress wise)

I'm not discounting the effects of low wing loading on those performance examples you mention.  I'm merely saying that wing-loading, by itself, is not the best way to compare two aircraft and their relative performance, without taking into account all the other variables.  On this board, a lot of folks that are not as well-read as others, quickly jump on wing-loading as the number one performance metric, and then have a hard time understanding why a 109 could theoretically have a larger sustained turning radius at 30,000 feet than a Jug, for example.

[EDIT]  At sea level, standard conditions, the Power Available/Power Required math is more simple, and ultimately, this is what controls performance, not merely the aircraft's wing loading.

[EDIT2]  Also, climb performance is maximized with excess power.  The aircraft with the most excess power will climb faster.  Now, low wing-load helps because it reduces the amount of power required, but if a heavily wing-loaded aircraft has more excess power than a low wing-loaded aircraft, the aircraft with the higher excess power climbs faster.  Just another example of why wing-loading by itself is a poor performance characteristic to compare aircraft with.  Again, this is illustrated by the heavier, more highly wing-loaded Jug having better climb than say the lighter wing-loaded 109G at high altitudes, for example.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 12:35:34 PM by Stoney »
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Offline moot

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2011, 12:34:21 PM »
Stoney, continuing the in-a-nutshell take on it, does wing loading have a performance aspect where it's the leading factor the way power loading is for climb perf?
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2011, 12:57:14 PM »
Drgondog I don't know if you're right or even looking at it the right/wrong way. I would simply suggest "Try it out for yourself" and leave it at that.


I of course speak from in-game experience, not real-world math.

Krusty,  the 190 A8 weights more and thus its momentum carries it further than a 109. Furthermore, as others pointed out, it has less drag than a 109. I don't know about your flying style, by my fav for dealing with spits, is to blow my e in a barrel roll and force an overshoot with a snap shot. Something the 109s are good at due to their ability to change e states faster than most other planes, faster than spits and 190s.


I have pulled it off in 190s, but if it dissolves into a sustained rolling scissors, due to item #2 in my original post... Making it so you can't get as slow, as the other guy, because you wont be able to bring your nose up as quickly and you will loose the fight...
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 01:04:26 PM by Ardy123 »
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Offline Stoney

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #71 on: March 03, 2011, 01:02:02 PM »
Stoney, continuing the in-a-nutshell take on it, does wing loading have a performance aspect where it's the leading factor the way power loading is for climb perf?

No, not directly.  Wing-loading can be a huge component of some of the performance equations, but the end result of the equation is what matters, not an individual variable.  And, it would be imprecise to say that power-loading is the leading factor for climb performance.  Excess power is what determines climb performance.  Most highly power-loaded aircraft will have "good" climb performance, but just as wing-loading isolated by itself is a poor performance metric, so too is power-loading.

"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline moot

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2011, 01:22:03 PM »
Sorry, excess power is what I meant in the above where I wrote power loading.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 01:42:18 PM by moot »
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Offline Debrody

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2011, 03:05:01 PM »
I still cant understand one thing. Why was the later model a8 better than the a5, except that little speed advantage on the deck? The a5 eats the a8 in a turnfight, also performs way better at every altitude above 5k.
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: P47 vs 190
« Reply #74 on: March 03, 2011, 03:10:20 PM »
I still cant understand one thing. Why was the later model a8 better than the a5, except that little speed advantage on the deck? The a5 eats the a8 in a turnfight, also performs way better at every altitude above 5k.

yeah, the A9 had a bigger engine.. Don't know that much about it, other than the bigger engine.
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