defiant come we need this be cause its awsome

[bangsbox]

Super-Defiant night-fighter of 151 Squadron RAF.
 

[Krusty]

The plane so bad that it couldn't run or turn and had no forward firing guns, but was intended to take the fight to Luftwaffe fighters in daytime. It performed so badly that they pushed it into night time nightfighter service and still it was too underpowered to perform the job well.


Yes... The defiant -- widely regarded as one of the worst flops of a WW2 aircraft development of all time -- should be included in this game because as you state it is "super"......



















</Sarcasm>

[bangsbox]

[Krusty]

THat is not a picture of a defiant.

[bangsbox]

The plane so bad that it couldn't run or turn and had no forward firing guns, but was intended to take the fight to Luftwaffe fighters in daytime. It performed so badly that they pushed it into night time nightfighter service and still it was too underpowered to perform the job well.


Yes... The defiant -- widely regarded as one of the worst flops of a WW2 aircraft development of all time -- should be included in this game because as you state it is "super"......



nah not me was.... super for the 4 hispanos















</Sarcasm>

[Krusty]

It carried 4x303 MGs in a turret only and never had forward firing weapons. That profile also suggests a contra-rotating or perhaps 5-bladed prop with a very late-war engine installed [like the spit14]. 'Tis a flight of fancy.


If you were kidding in the original request, I am sorry. I missed that. If it was a serious request, I recommend you do a bit of checking first.

[Guppy35]

LOL that's the famoust black Griffon engined 4 cannon Defiant!

Yeah...that one....

[bangsbox]

Project for improved single-seat fighter version with Merkin XX engine, cut-down rear fuselage and wings equipped for 12 machine guns or four 20 mm cannon + 4 machine guns. sorry was a prototype...but would be a sweet plane.

[hyster]

if this is about the bolton paul defiant then it had a lot of success when first used as the germans thought it was a hurricane and came in from its 6 straight into the guns.

when the germans caught on they then changed there tactics and slaughtered the plane.

if i remember correctly it ended up towing target chutes.

[Krusty]

If by "a lot of success" you mean "only the first time the Germans saw it" then yes... I didn't know 1-2 sorties equalled "lot of success" ... considering all sorties after that it was nearly wiped from the sky. At a time they were desperate for any kind of fighter, they withdrew it from front line fighter duties. That tells ya a little about it.

[Melvin]

It's a fine looking bird anyway. With a proper engine, prop and gun package it might well have been a killer.

That's just "what if" though, and doesn't hold any water.

[SectorNine50]

If the first picture isn't a Defiant, what is it?  Cause it seems to be on the same airframe, but looks like it has forward guns.  Would be funny to have a fighter with a rear gun and forward gun.  If you brought a good gunner, you'd never need a check six... lol

[hyster]

If by "a lot of success" you mean "only the first time the Germans saw it" then yes... I didn't know 1-2 sorties equalled "lot of success" ... considering all sorties after that it was nearly wiped from the sky. At a time they were desperate for any kind of fighter, they withdrew it from front line fighter duties. That tells ya a little about it.

so much for a 1 day wonder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boulton_Paul_Defiant

During the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from Dunkirk, the Squadron was forward based at RAF Manston one of the 16 Squadrons that No. 11 Group had available to cover the evacuation. On the 27th 264 Sqn claimed 3 He 111 and 2 damaged. On the 28th, shortly after take-off ten Defiants were attacked by about 30 Bf 109s - forming a circle, six German fighters were claimed for the loss of three Defiants.

The Defiant was initially successful against enemy aircraft. Its best day was 29 May 1940, when No. 264 Sqn claimed 37 kills in two sorties: 19 Junkers Ju 87 Stuka dive bombers mostly picked off as they came out of their dives, nine Messerschmitt Bf 110 twin-engined heavy fighters, eight Bf 109s a Ju-88. One Defiant gunner was lost after he bailed out though the aircraft made base to be repaired.

Initially, Luftwaffe fighters suffered losses when "bouncing" flights of Defiants from the rear, apparently mistaking them for Hurricanes.[11] The German pilots were unaware of the Defiant's rear-firing armament and encountered concentrated defensive fire. With a change in Luftwaffe tactics, opposing fighters were able to out-manoeuvre the Defiant and attack it from below or dead ahead, where the turret offered no defence: . Defiant losses quickly mounted, particularly among the gunners who were often unable to leave stricken aircraft. The additional weight of the turret and the second crewman plus the aerodynamic drag, gave the Defiant lower performance than conventional fighter aircraft.[12] According to the book The Turret Fighters by aviation historian Alec Brew, 264 Sqn. developed a counter against single-seat aircraft such as the Bf 109. By flying in an ever-descending Lufberry circle, Defiant crews sacrificed the advantage of height but eliminated the possibility of attack from underneath, while giving 360° of defensive fire.[13] This tactic was used successfully by 264 Sqn. but when the Defiants of 141 Sqn. were committed to combat a few months later during the Battle of Britain, it chose to ignore their advice with devastating consequences. On 19 July 1940, seven out of nine Defiants of 141 Sqn. sent to cover a convoy off Folkestone were shot down and the remaining two only survived, one badly damaged, due to the intervention of Hurricanes of 111 Sqn. The Hurricanes reported that the Defiants had shot down four Bf 109s.[14][15] Although 264 Sqn. claimed 48 kills in eight days over Dunkirk, the cost was high with 14 Defiants lost. The actual German losses were no more than 12 to 15 enemy aircraft; the turret's wide angle of fire meant that several Defiants could engage the same target at one time leading to multiple claims.

264 Squadron lost three aircraft on 26 August and five on 28 August with the deaths of nine crew members. With these losses, the Defiant - which had been intended from the start as a day and night fighter - was transferred to night fighting and there the Defiant achieved some success. Defiant night fighters typically attacked enemy bombers from below, in a similar manoeuvre to the later successful German Schräge Musik methods. Defiants attacked more often from slightly ahead or to one side, rather than from directly under the tail. During the winter Blitz on London of 1940–41, the Defiant equipped four squadrons, shooting down more enemy aircraft than any other type.[16] The turret-fighter concept was not immediately discarded and the fitting of Defiant-type turrets to Beaufighter and Mosquito night fighters was tried to enable these aircraft to duplicate these methods but the effect on performance proved drastic and the idea was abandoned.[17] The Defiant Mk II model was fitted with the AI Mk IV airborne interception radar and a Merlin XX engine. A total of 207 Mk II Defiants were built.

[Krusty]

Sectornine50: It's nothing. That's not a real photo. It's something somebody drew up in Photoshop. It is a fabrication. Nothing more.

Hyster: You quoted it but I'll repost for sake of emphasis:

"Although 264 Sqn. claimed 48 kills in eight days over Dunkirk, the cost was high with 14 Defiants lost. The actual German losses were no more than 12 to 15 enemy aircraft"

You seem to over-emphasize their effectiveness. That's misleading.

Let me quote something that's probably a bit more reliable than wikipedia:

Previously, a single-seat fighter unit, 264 Sqn spent some time working out the new tactics required by the type. Good co-ordination was required between the pilot and gunner in order to get into the best position to open fire on a target. A second day fighter unit, 141 Sqn, began converting to the Defiant in April 1940. The Defiant undertook it first operational sortie on 12 May 1940, when 264 Sqn flew a patrol over the beaches of Dunkirk. A Junkers Ju 88 was claimed by the squadron. However, the unit suffered its first losses the following day, when five out of six aircraft were shot down by Bf 109s in large dogfight. The Defiant was never designed to dogfight with single-seat fighters and losses soon mounted. By the end of May 1940, it had become very clear that the Defiant was no match for the Bf 109 and the two squadrons were moved to airfields away from the south coast of England. At the same time, interception of unescorted German bombers often proved successful, with several kills being made.

Also please note the following dates:

12 May 1940    First operational sortie, over the beaches of Dunkirk
28 August 1940    Withdrawal from daytime operations

So about 3 months. That was the extent of its daytime lifespan. It's night fighter kills are no testament to its capabilities either, as it was soon replaced by better nightfighters with more performance and firepower.


It was, by all estimations, a failure of design and execution.

[SectorNine50]

Sectornine50: It's nothing. That's not a real photo. It's something somebody drew up in Photoshop. It is a fabrication. Nothing more.

Ah.  Okay.  Got it.  I understand.  I comprehend...

Moving on...