Author Topic: If I lived on the West Coast  (Read 5728 times)

Offline Babalonian

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2011, 07:29:28 PM »
The Soviet disaster at Chernoble is only looked down upon in such a shameful manner because they got co!@y and had the reactor vessel sitting out there wide in the open.  No backup systems, shieldings, safety procedures, nada, zip, zilch - ontop of puttign the da!@ thing in the middle of a metropolitan area!  Darwin could of told you that it was a situation where they were overconfident that their failure was believing nothing could or ever would go wrong, that it was a flaw to think that nobody, especialy a soviet nuclear engineer or plant worker, could or ever would make a single fatal mistake or error... well someone did, and it resulted in a compromise in the reactor vessel and imediate and direct exposure of the live-hot reactor core (they didn't imediatley or weren't able to disengage it after the accident, and as a result it was now exposed to the environment with the switch stuck in the "on" position).

Three Mile Island was the same thing, not enough backups or safety produres studied or in place and someone made a fatal mistake that cause a breach in the reactor vessel.  Three Mile was even worse on scale because it was a much larger reactor than Chernoble that was compromised... however, and ever thankfuly, someone somewhere mandated a concrete dome/shield be built around the contained inner reactor vessel.  As a result, to this day, the most radioactive place known to man exists(ed) inside that conrete dome that housed that reactor on Three Mile Island.
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Offline warhed

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2011, 08:07:57 PM »
The Soviet disaster at Chernoble is only looked down upon in such a shameful manner because they got co!@y and had the reactor vessel sitting out there wide in the open.  No backup systems, shieldings, safety procedures, nada, zip, zilch - ontop of puttign the da!@ thing in the middle of a metropolitan area!  Darwin could of told you that it was a situation where they were overconfident that their failure was believing nothing could or ever would go wrong, that it was a flaw to think that nobody, especialy a soviet nuclear engineer or plant worker, could or ever would make a single fatal mistake or error... well someone did, and it resulted in a compromise in the reactor vessel and imediate and direct exposure of the live-hot reactor core (they didn't imediatley or weren't able to disengage it after the accident, and as a result it was now exposed to the environment with the switch stuck in the "on" position).

Three Mile Island was the same thing, not enough backups or safety produres studied or in place and someone made a fatal mistake that cause a breach in the reactor vessel.  Three Mile was even worse on scale because it was a much larger reactor than Chernoble that was compromised... however, and ever thankfuly, someone somewhere mandated a concrete dome/shield be built around the contained inner reactor vessel.  As a result, to this day, the most radioactive place known to man exists(ed) inside that conrete dome that housed that reactor on Three Mile Island.

And because of Three Mile Island, the United States now has the highest trained, most safety oriented nuclear industry on the planet.  It completely revolutionized the operation of nuclear reactors in this country.  
By the way, the Three Mile Island event was caused by control room operators insisting they were correct, and ignoring what their gauges and readouts were telling them was right.  There was no mechanical failure or any fault to the nuclear reactor design, it was 100% human error.  And also showed us how safe a nuclear reactor actually is, even when humans try their best to screw it up.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 08:09:38 PM by warhed »
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2011, 03:18:16 PM »
And because of Three Mile Island, the United States now has the highest trained, most safety oriented nuclear industry on the planet.  It completely revolutionized the operation of nuclear reactors in this country.  
By the way, the Three Mile Island event was caused by control room operators insisting they were correct, and ignoring what their gauges and readouts were telling them was right.  There was no mechanical failure or any fault to the nuclear reactor design, it was 100% human error.  And also showed us how safe a nuclear reactor actually is, even when humans try their best to screw it up.

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Media hype/misinformation notwithstanding (I am not an expert on nuclear power, either) I don't think anyone could have really "planned" for what happened in Japan.  It appears that there were redundant, backup systems in-place, that all got wiped out at one time by the different catastrophes brought on by the earthquake/tsunami, and resultant frequent and strong aftershocks.  From what I have gleaned so far, it seems like it was one of those "perfect storm" scenarios.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2011, 03:27:30 PM »
I certainly hope no one is saying Japan did not build the reactors correctly.

There is one truth I learned at an early age.  If man can build it, mother nature can take it down.
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2011, 03:28:55 PM »
I certainly hope no one is saying Japan did not build the reactors correctly.

There is one truth I learned at an early age.  If man can build it, mother nature can take it down.

If there is one axiom that can be relied on 100%, this is it.   :aok
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Offline Jayhawk

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2011, 03:31:28 PM »
I thought this was a good quick explanation of what is happening: http://wimp.com/problemexplained/

I have to agree this was a "perfect storm" of events; I don't think it should be ignored that the safety features have still managed to at least delay any catastrophic event allowing evacuations in the area.  No doubt some smarter people than I will be working on more safety features with this event in mind.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2011, 05:25:27 PM »
I certainly hope no one is saying Japan did not build the reactors correctly.

There is one truth I learned at an early age.  If man can build it, mother nature can take it down.

Very true.  I'm only concerned though that someone knew this plant was outdated and needed a renovation, it was scheduled to go offline and stop operations, per its designed specs, this february, but recieved a 10-year extension.  Given the events, I'm stongly in favor of those who knew the plants limits when they built and designed it over those who operate and run it (those using it to generate a profit). 

There are some triumphs though not to be taken lightly, such that this plant had _three_ live-hot active vessels that successfuly disengaged and shut down (automaticaly too, if reports are accurate, which is another really good thing for the industry.  another good thing is that this plant and it's design is about as old and outdated as you can get in a modern country, so if the media was spinning this in another direction we could be all patting ourselves on the back at how far the technology and science has come.  knock on wood, this won't be near as bad as chernoble and three-mile in the end, and it wasn't even man-made.), and we can only dream of the nightmare that it would of been to deal with if all three they went into total meltdown stuck with the switch in the "on" position.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 05:29:28 PM by Babalonian »
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2011, 05:51:30 PM »
if they were all shutdown as planned in Feb I doubt the outcome would have been that much different, possibly alot worse. the storage pools looks like the biggest danger to me, which would all have been packed with fuel. afaik 5 & 6s pools are most densely packed (and packed tighter than spec ...) due to them being offline.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2011, 06:44:59 PM »
if they were all shutdown as planned in Feb I doubt the outcome would have been that much different, possibly alot worse. the storage pools looks like the biggest danger to me, which would all have been packed with fuel. afaik 5 & 6s pools are most densely packed (and packed tighter than spec ...) due to them being offline.

To the best of my understanding:
1)  You are correct in that there would undoubtedly still of been a large amount if not all of the nuclear fuel and material still on-site as they would of just begun decomissioning that would still need to be kept stabalized.  However, real rough comparison here, lets look at a hot-live reactor that's reacting and generating much like a hot-running automotive engine.  When it's on and running, it's really generating heat that needs to be disipated rapidly by the cooling system.  However, unlike an automotive engine - where lets say you get a flat tire or something that requires you to suddenly stop your operation, you can pull off the road and turn off the engine and while off/inactive the engine doesnt need the assisted cooling further because, while warm, it is no longer generating heat and is in a gradual state of cooling - when the switch gets turned from on to off on a nuclear reactor it still has a TON of heat built up in it ontop of still generating some additional gradual heat.  It still needs to be cooled with assistance at full power until it reaches a more stable tempurature and you're only needing to cool the more passive heat being generated while it's off.  Normaly this is a process that doesn't take long, but at this plant when the quake hit, the three cores that were active shut down (while still really hot), and the coolant imediatley stopped being circulated.
2)  The design of this plants is, I believe, of a taller stacked variety (an older GE design), with the spent rods being stored above, in a second-level, with the active reactor vessel and unspent fuel rods in the same "pool" of water/coolant stored in the lower level.  This would explain why authorities have said that the main vessels themselves, with the worse of the nuclear material, are well safe (and submerged) in the coldest and deepest parts of these pools/tanks... the spent nuclear material though, which still has some strong radioactivity and is stored near the surface of these pools/tanks, is what the workers are having to fight to keep submerged, stable and cool (no water circulation, heat goes up and stays up from the vessels that were raging hot but have been gradualy cooling now).

It's a case where if they weren't active at the time, they would still have a warm pot of water, generating its own heat, to deal with managing and circulating some cool water into to keep stable.  Instead they were active, so at the time of the quake, the pot of water was boiling-hot (with cool water being circulated into it and the hottest water being taken out to prevent it from boiling over) and the bottom that was sitting directly on the burner was glowing molten-red hot, and now the burner is turned off, but the bottom of the pot is still so hot it's generating heat, but now you have no water circulation so pressure is building, water is boiling away from the surface, and no fresh stuff is comming in to replace the water being boiled off or help reduce the temperature and pressures that are building.
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Offline mbailey

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2011, 07:12:44 AM »
***NEWS FLASH***

MBailey was seen entering the the woods around Coopersburg Pa with what could only be described as a large carving knife, a bag of potatoes and a smile. When confronted about it he says " I just want to let the world know of my love for CAPS and .....is that thing on???" :bhead

He ran inside again and wasn't seen exiting his house. More at 7.

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Offline Tyrannis

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2011, 10:55:56 AM »
i hope i dont sound insensitive for saying this, but..

i view the tsunami&earthquake as mother nature reminding us that she's still in charge of this planet, not us.

Offline grizz441

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2011, 12:13:19 PM »
i view the tsunami&earthquake as mother nature reminding us that she's still in charge of this planet, not us.

And your point is...?

Offline Tyrannis

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2011, 12:14:14 PM »
And your point is...?
no point, just stating my opinion on the matter, like everyone else.

Offline grizz441

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2011, 12:15:02 PM »
no point, just stating my opinion on the matter, like everyone else.

So what's your opinion then, that mother nature is in charge? Oh ok.

Offline Tyrannis

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Re: If I lived on the West Coast
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2011, 12:20:32 PM »
So what's your opinion then, that mother nature is in charge? Oh ok.
to avoid getting into a pointless argument with you, im just going to say yea. thats my opinion. and leave it at that.