Pathfinder missions

[Angus]

On another thread, there was a dicussion about formation bombing on command, where 1 or 2 of the flight would fly fast bombers with a bombsight, and the rest heavy jabos. Once the eggs are gone, dive in and have a party.
Anyway, staying unperked, and aiming at perhaps 300 mph, I came up with the Boston, and the Ki67 as pathfinder candidates, followed by the Ju88 and then the B-26.
Jabos could be .38's, P47's, F4U's for max load. Perhaps A-20, but I am not sure all of the mentioned will even keep up with a Boston.
Then there is the Mossie, P51, Tiffie (2000 lbs category), F6F
Maybe more?
Anyway, open for set-up discussions, and eager to have a go one day in the MA.
Targets would be fields or maybe strats.

[Imowface]

I always thought of pathfinder missions as being a mossi flys in at night ahead of the bomber streem and drops flairs/incindiary or some other sort of marker so that the heavys could find the blacked out city at night

[Angus]

That would have been the typical real-life mission at night. But we do not have flares, or any night flying gadgets, nor even proper night for that sake.
Bombing on command was often done in the daylight raids. It meant that not everyone needed a bombsight.
My idea in AH is using heavily loaded Jabo's to bomb on command. They pack some punch, are hard to intercept (something that enters a radar sector at 15K or so, doing 300 mph is very hard to intercept), and can after the drop, dive in and have a cannon & rocket party.
The "drop" would probably have to be organized after field layout, maximising the chanses of a hit.
Think of P47M for instance, 2.500 lbs to drop, then 10 rockets left....

[MjTalon]

They're effective. Ran em back when I use to play daily, actually it's quite efficient to run Pathfinder tactics to allow for maximum defensive awareness amongst bomber missions so the only thing your fellow pilots would be required to do is listen for the bomb drop call and maintain proper formations, headings, etc.

[Angus]

Here is some truth to this kind of missions. As far as I know, they were not performed like this in the real WW2, but the idea was definately floating around.
A good friend of mine flew for the RAF in WW2, from 1940 untill 1945. From 1944 he flew P51B's for 65 squadron. All the way from Normandy and deep into Germany. His later missions were daytime escorts of B-17's, - Berlin included.
It was a long and cold round trip, boring, uneventful most times, and in his opinion, not very effective.
His point was that the escorts alone could have hauled MORE than the B-17's, who flew out of England at the time. You have 2.000 lbs per fighter, 3 fighters per bomber, and 2 trips instead of one. That is 12.000 lbs per bomber, 6.000 if you take only 500 pndrs.
3 fighters have a crew of 3, and a total of 3 engines, 3 fighters and one bomber a crew of some 12-13 (?) and 7 engines. And the 3 fighters come and go much faster.
If getting engaged, well, then finally there would be a fight, since the Gerries avoided the fighters most of the time. And the exit part? Who's gonna catch you, and why try to catch a swarm of well toothed fighters.
You'd only need a couple of Mosquitos to pull this off he said. Drop on command, unless you want to dive bomb, which would also be suitable and solve the problems of ... clouds.
I think he had a valid point.

[Mongoose]

Here is some truth to this kind of missions. As far as I know, they were not performed like this in the real WW2, but the idea was definately floating around.

  Actually, these kind of missions were run in the real WW2.  Which is where we got the idea.   

  There were some P38's which were modified by taking out the guns in the nose, and replacing the nose with a Plexiglas compartment and bomb sight for a bombardier.  This plane would lead a flight of regular P38's to the target.  On command from the lead plane, all the planes would drop their bombs.

  In some cases, they carried 2,000 pound bombs instead of the regular 1,000 pound bombs.

[Mongoose]

 

[Mongoose]

Sorry, internet glitch, posted twice.

[Scherf]

RAF did similar things - Oboe Mosquitoes of 8 Group Bomber Command led in formations of FB.VIs of 2 Group, 2nd TAF, against V-1 targets in France.

[Angus]

At night then? That qould be some thing.
My old friend there was also involved in crossbow missions. He said they were the worst, since a loss was the norm in every mission. Completely concentrated flak was the thing.
But hitting them in the dark, maybe even through a cloud, hehe.

[Scherf]

Heya,

No, those were daylight raids. They also did some "Oboe leader" daylight ops against German targets with the heavies, later in the war, but they had trouble cruising slowly enough for the Lancs to keep up.

[Angus]

Allright. Oboe could have allowed night raids though.
As I understood it, the ack was mostly lighter ack, so diving fighters would suffer, but high-alt aurcraft much less...

[Scherf]

Yep, the most efective raids against the V-! sites were at low level, exposed to flak, however I think the 2 TAF Mossies didn't exceed 2% losses on those sorties.

Would have to have a look at the books, however for those interested, the 464 Squadron Operations Record Book is online at the Australian National Archives - should be possible to calculate loss rates for the squadron.

[Angus]

Are there anu more opeartions books online? The only time I had a glance at some (111 sqn), it meant going to London and making an appointment at the PRO. Could have spent days there though....

[Scherf]

Most of the Australian Squadrons are online at

www.naa.gov.au

There's a thread about ORBs here:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=18817