Author Topic: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs  (Read 6184 times)

Offline mtnman

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2011, 12:22:29 PM »
On the American frontier, the bow was more effective against muzzle loading muskets and rifles than is often credited as well (although the most feared weapon on the frontier was neither; it was the tomahawk).

For one, rate of fire is about 6 times higher with a bow.  I fire muzzle loaders a lot, and am pretty quick when it comes to measuring powder and loading "out of the bag".  Even so, I have trouble getting an aimed shot off in less than 40 seconds.

The early militia was expected to be able to load and fire quickly, but the vast majority of Americans weren't in the militia...  Against small 1-15 man groups, and using guerrilla-type warfare, that quicker rate-of-fire was an advantage.

Another advantage was stealth.  Several archers could fire once or twice each and not immediately give away their position.  Dropping selected members of the opposing party, they could possibly even remove several opponents before the alarm was raised.  I've had the misfortune of missing several deer while hunting with a longbow or recurve.  Often the arrow flight is the loudest noise (unlike those clanky new-fangled training-wheel bows).  Several times I've missed a deer from the "right", and had the deer look to the left (where the arrow hit) wondering what was up.  Meanwhile, with the deer facing away I nock another arrow...  I've even hit deer, and had them jump toward me, and away from the arrow that passed through it and clanked against the ground on the opposite side.

The arching flight of the arrow is another advantage, when your opponents are forted-up behind a low obstacle (fallen tree or rock).  Unlike a bullet, an arrow can be "lobbed" quite effectively.

Another aspect to consider is that while animals are dying due to massive blood-loss, and can take a while to do so (traveling quite some distance), people go into shock very quickly, even from minor wounds.  You can die (or at least be incapacitated) from shock, even if the wound isn't fatal...
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline mechanic

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2011, 12:55:20 PM »
Very interesting points raised by everyone. Great debate to read, thank you for all the good info everyone. I'm very interested in both the bow as a weapona nd the developement of firearms through history.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline morfiend

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2011, 12:55:46 PM »
Batty,

  Just finished watching your penetration vid,nice use of the mirror!!  I think that the galvanized steel you used is abit light to represent armour,maybe it's close to the plate thickness but they had mail and leather under that too!


   Now I noticed a 45gallon drum in the riding ring,that would,IMHO be a better target. If you could get the arrow the penetrate that it would most likely prove that the longbow could indeed stop an armoured combatant.

The excrement part wasnt to be mentioned Batty{you'll be reprimanded in due time},the biological weapons treaty wasnt signed for several years after this offence,but we still dont want that to be public knowledge..... :noid

    :rofl :rofl :rofl



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Offline BnZs

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2011, 01:13:49 PM »


Another aspect to consider is that while animals are dying due to massive blood-loss, and can take a while to do so (traveling quite some distance), people go into shock very quickly, even from minor wounds.  You can die (or at least be incapacitated) from shock, even if the wound isn't fatal...

Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't.
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2011, 02:08:06 PM »
Batty,

  Just finished watching your penetration vid,nice use of the mirror!!  I think that the galvanized steel you used is abit light to represent armour,maybe it's close to the plate thickness but they had mail and leather under that too!


   Now I noticed a 45gallon drum in the riding ring,that would,IMHO be a better target. If you could get the arrow the penetrate that it would most likely prove that the longbow could indeed stop an armoured combatant.

The excrement part wasnt to be mentioned Batty{you'll be reprimanded in due time},the biological weapons treaty wasnt signed for several years after this offence,but we still dont want that to be public knowledge.....

    



hehehe! Even without the bio-weap technology the archers would often stick their arrows in the ground infront of them, which could also lead to infection.

Yes you are right, those two lump of steel were all I could find at the time. I will make a 4" bodkin and test it on that steel drum when I get a chance.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2011, 02:53:48 PM »
I imagine a huge part of the equation is cost, cost of ammo (arrows) if not the bows themselves. A few years ago I figured up the cost of arrows made from bought components that I assembled myself, and it came to $2.50 apiece. Rifle cartridges are alot cheaper than that. I imagine a similar economic dynamic might have applied to lead balls and powder charges vs. arrows back in the day.

It would have, but in reverse.

When you look at the bow in history, it's use in England was (er, is) just a teency weency piece of its history and use across the globe.  Depending on which data you choose to believe, the bow has been around for at least 7000 or possibly as long as 30,000 years.  Laminated/layered/composite bows have been around for at least 4000 years.  The materials and knowledge required to make bows were literally "everywhere" and available for everyone.  Bows and arrows literally grow on trees.  In reality, the bow is the easy part.  A great bow is nothing without good arrows.  Good arrows will fly pretty good out of a cruddy bow, though.  Making good arrows is more difficult than making a good bow.  

The poorest people in the world have always had access to archery equipment, because they can pick the materials up off the ground and make the equipment themselves.  As a matter of fact, people that needed bows often had one they were using, a spare one, and several staves curing so they could be turned into bows as they needed them.  They were "free" after all, as well as being necessary for survival...

Medieval England throws some complications into the equation, because now there's division of class, ownership of resources, etc..  But then again, every able-bodied male was expected to own, be proficient with, and practice daily with his bow at one point.

On the other hand, powder and lead aren't as easy to find.  And even if the materials are readily at hand, it requires special knowledge (which was often kept "secret") to turn charcoal, sulfur, and potassium nitrate into a reliable, powerful, powder.  Those materials and knowledge were much more costly.  Supply and demand factors in here.  The demand for powder and lead eventually got high while the overall supply was low, driving the price up, while the supplies for archery equipment were high with a lower demand which kept prices low.

And again, the firearms themselves took special non-readily-available materials, knowledge, and skill, to create.  That translates to an expensive firearm, using expensive powder and possibly expensive lead.  Even if the lead is "cheap", it's not as cheap or readily available as dogwood saplings and chert (arrows).

The lead was a mined resource that wasn't available to everyone locally, so had to be transported, traded for, purchased, etc...  It wasn't cheap.  Sulfur was the same.  Potassium Nitrate was often leached from animal or human waste (again, using a technique that wasn't known by everyone).

Maintenance too...  Once a firearm is procured, it still requires a specially-trained person to make repairs or replacement parts (which in almost every case were "custom" parts, since it was pre- industrial revolution).  Firearms were made one at a time by an individual in a blacksmith shop.  If he needed a screw, he made one from scratch.  If he needed a trigger, he made one from scratch.  If he needed a barrel, he made one from scratch.  Even if he made several barrels at the same time they weren't identical...  Firearms were what we think of as "custom made" and expensive.

Prices of "a few years ago" for store-bought archery supplies cannot even remotely be compared to what they've been in history.  First of all, those items likely weren't available for purchase for the most part, since they were readily available for everyone and nobody wanted to pay for them.  100 years ago, people didn't go to the store and buy sticks so they could make arrows.  And again, supply and demand kicks in, but this time in reverse...  Nowadays, powder and lead are cheap, whereas archery equipment is more of a rarity or specialty.  Archery equipment is more expensive (by far) than it's been in the past, while firearms and bullets are far cheaper than they've been in the past.
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline mtnman

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2011, 03:08:40 PM »


hehehe! Even without the bio-weap technology the archers would often stick their arrows in the ground infront of them, which could also lead to infection.

Yes you are right, those two lump of steel were all I could find at the time. I will make a 4" bodkin and test it on that steel drum when I get a chance.

I wouldn't be surprised to see it bounce off of a drum. 

I suspect the metallurgy of the drum is significantly better/different than medieval armor, although I've never looked into it.  I'm confident that most of the steel I use for making things in my blacksmith forge is too soft to make decent points out of, let alone points to penetrate steel.  The drum itself would make better points, with its higher carbon content.

I'm still curious to see what it'll do though.  I fired my .75 musket at the side of a steel drum from almost 100 yards.  The ball penetrated the drum and went 'round and 'round inside, making a hellaciously cool noise, lol!
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline mechanic

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2011, 03:21:34 PM »
hah! That would be very cool to hear, I can imagine how it would sound.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2011, 03:40:46 PM »
hah! That would be very cool to hear, I can imagine how it would sound.

Well now, truth be told it scared the piss outta me at first. 

I was expecting to hear the impact, but the next three seconds or so of noise I wasn't expecting!  I didn't know what the noise was, and was worried I'd ricocheted and hit something I shouldn't have.  I was also concerned that whatever I'd hit was doing something "odd" that I was going to get into trouble about.

It turned from a "scary as chit" noise into a "hellaciously cool" noise a few minutes later, when I figured out what had happened.

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around something I saw in your penetration test movie.  Were you actually trying to touch that cat???  Bare-handed?  Gross...
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline mechanic

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2011, 04:29:34 PM »
ahahaha....I was trying to get the little bugger out of the firing range, but she was too quick for me.

don't worry I had a leather glove on.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2011, 01:54:11 AM »
I made a 25 min, 2-part instructional video on how I make a hazel bow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCnGMup29OU   - part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=creV06I-4us    - part 2
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline morfiend

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2011, 01:57:34 PM »
I wouldn't be surprised to see it bounce off of a drum. 

I suspect the metallurgy of the drum is significantly better/different than medieval armor, although I've never looked into it.  I'm confident that most of the steel I use for making things in my blacksmith forge is too soft to make decent points out of, let alone points to penetrate steel.  The drum itself would make better points, with its higher carbon content.



 Yes I suspect the same thing Mtnman,however if it can pierce the drum even slightly it would give us a much better idea of the penetration thats possible.

  IIRC they made different points and different arrows,points for hunting,target and the deadly war bodkins.I would suspect they would use a heavier and or longer arrow for war also.The added weight or the war point and arrow would have a higher impact force,sort of like getting hit by a heavyweight boxer compared to a middleweight.

 I've always been fascinated with medieval weapons,been thinking about a water ballon trebuchet to amuse the grandson with!



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Offline mechanic

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2011, 11:31:47 AM »
I tested a half inch bodkins tyle point on the steel drum, Morf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnYHorXQRGE

what do you think?
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2011, 04:21:07 PM »
I tested a half inch bodkins tyle point on the steel drum, Morf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnYHorXQRGE

what do you think?

Pretty impressive!

Hazel is a wood I've never played with.  What kind of properties are you finding with it?  Is it faster/slower than other woods you've used (at a comparative draw length and weight)?  Does it have any string-following tendencies so far?
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline morfiend

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Re: Homemade English Longbow - Hazel ~85lbs
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2011, 06:12:08 PM »
 Ah great stuff Batty,not sure why the french though,whats a seal got to do with this anyways.... :rofl :rofl


  I've used those same points way back when,I think they're called a field point as you can use them for target and or small game!  Certainly nothing like a real war bodkin but the results were more than impressive.

  You've got a good eye,that looked like a 2 inch group at what 24 to 30 ft??  Very nice!!

 Makes you understand why they cut the fingers off the archers,all that money spent on armour and some peasent with a bow defeats it....... :furious    I've heard thats where the 2 finger V for victory came from,the Archers tauntingly held up their 2 fingers to show they still had them!

  Add some biological additives to the points and a mere scratch was deadly.    BTW Batty,the morphine would just prolong the agony,best finish the deed and save the meds for a good party afterwards....... :rofl



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