Author Topic: April FSO: Ketsu Go  (Read 4242 times)

Offline daddog

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2011, 11:22:09 AM »
Lost power and phone this past weekend. Hence I have not been able to follow the FSO forum or this thread.

Nef wants to give the B-29 a try. I am all for it. No doubt it adds some issues we may have to deal with.

Nef will adjust as needed to make it enjoyable for all involved.

Give it a shot. Not like we haven't tried new things before. :D
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Offline Nefarious

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2011, 11:23:58 AM »
We are also going to have a custom weather file installed for April's FSO.

It will consist of clouds at and below the 22K Alt Cap, Obscured targets could force the B-29s lower to get a clear view through the bomb sight.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Krusty

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2011, 01:51:51 PM »
Interesting observation.

According to what I've read, and talking with a few folks who flew B-17s and B-24s in WWII, bombers always flew at maximum weight, trading off bombs vs. fuel depending on the distance to their target.  But always at maximum weight.  As the old saw goes, "nothing is more useless than the fuel you leave in the truck, or the runway that is behind you."  I have never - yet - heard of a RL instance where bombers were loaded with less fuel in order weigh less and fly faster.



Quite so. They loaded max fuel just to bomb things across the channel from England.


GD: You're failing to understand the point I'm making. While the charts are in fact showing the FW190 faster than the B-24 (and it is... in clean condition with prolonged WEP time), in actual practice, from multiple scenarios, from so many FSOs I can't count them, the FW190A8 is too slow to catch B-24s when the B-24s are flying full throttle. That's when there are no escorts to stop your chase. If you have alt, if you have position, or whatever, If you have SOME advantage, you can transfer that into your attack. If you're co-alt/co-E you're SOL and then some. You'll chase them for 15-20 minutes to make 1 good attack run, or fall dead6 for a cheap death attack run and die. By then they're 3 sectors in and you've only made 1 attack. They can cross half a map in 20-30 minutes.


I've also run into bombers in the MA for whatever reason were flying aroudn 150-180mph level. I was actually able to make slashing passes in a 190a as stated in historic reports. I was able to get in position several times AHEAD of the formation all inside 1 sector's distance of flight.


It was much more immersive and gave me a real awesome moment of what-it-musta-felt-like. I don't get that feeling in scenarios or FSOs as much as the allied escorts must. You could actually make a dead6 attack quickly, and break off and reposition, instead of loitering there in the gunsights like full-throttle-bombers would have produced.

Funny thing is in BoG Frame 3 or 4 I saw 2 full squads of ALLIED fighters trying to catch up to the bombers. They bounced attackers and couldn't get back into cover position over their buffs! I just flew alongside these p47s/p51s and popped 3 or 4 of them. Bombers fly too fast in this game, that's a fact. If you're trying to put them into some setup or scenario you have to take that into account.

Unless the B-29s are forced to carry 50% fuel (denoting burning half on the way to target?) or 75% (they'd have reserve fuel for the route back), and fly only at max cruise settings, they have a fair chance of outrunning a number of the fighters chasing them.

Offline ghostdancer

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2011, 03:14:52 PM »
Quote
While the charts are in fact showing the FW190 faster than the B-24 (and it is... in clean condition with prolonged WEP time)

The chart shows both the military and WEP speed. Both are significantly faster than the B24J at all alts. In regards to your "in a clean state" comment  most defenders dump their drop tanks and gun their engines to get to their max speed as soon as confirmation of enemy is in the area. So more likely than not they will be in a clean state or soon will be when intercepting incoming attackers. If they are not in a clean state at this point that is the choice of the pilot.

Quote
in actual practice, from multiple scenarios, from so many FSOs I can't count them, the FW190A8 is too slow to catch B-24s when the B-24s are flying full throttle.

You do realize that other people, including myself, have been participating in events much longer than you have and have actually have equal or more practice in these match ups than you do? So to make a claim that your personal experience trumps others because of the amount of actual practice and events you have been in is not a credible or even logical argument.

Quote
Bombers fly too fast in this game, that's a fact. If you're trying to put them into some setup or scenario you have to take that into account.

No it is not a fact. It is your position. Submit data to HTC proving that their modelling is wrong, otherwise it is not a fact but your opinion. Also submit proof that a B24J and Fw190A8 at coalt, running level, and both at their max speed will result in a B24J out running a Fw190A8.

Quote
Funny thing is in BoG Frame 3 or 4 I saw 2 full squads of ALLIED fighters trying to catch up to the bombers. They bounced attackers and couldn't get back into cover position over their buffs!

Nothing funny about it. If the escorts engaged the enemy they more likely than not blew some E in the engagement. If they got sucked low by the enemy they then not only loss E but altitude. So while the bombers continued full bored toward their targets the escorts made the mistake of getting sucked away from the bombers and losing alt. They then had to recover from a state with less E and not only climb back up toward the bombers but climb to superior altitude. So depending on how much E they blew in the engagement and how much lower in alt they end up than the bombers is very plausible. Not a funny situation at all or anything that proves your point. It is also why escorts are told over and over and over again in events and actually in real life not to leave the bombers.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 03:55:08 PM by ghostdancer »
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Offline Debrody

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2011, 05:22:08 PM »
Man, its not about the b24 but the b29...
You have the same speed of your target, but your target has 3*20mms and 36*50cals plus hard like crazy. Not to talk about the ponies and jugs BnZing you. GL Jappos, i wont take part in this FSO, just as the majority of my squad. Have fun.  :salute
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Offline MachNix

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2011, 05:29:16 PM »
It will consist of clouds at and below the 22K Alt Cap, Obscured targets could force the B-29s lower to get a clear view through the bomb sight.

I have been in other 'events' other than FSO where "22k Alt Cap" meant 22,999 feet maximum when others thought that 22k was the maximum and 22,001 feet was breaking the cap.  What is your definition and how will it be verified?

Thanks.

Offline Nefarious

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2011, 05:43:36 PM »
22,000 will be the ALT CAP meaning 22,001 would be a violation.

Most likely any verification would come from film review post-frame unless a nearby CM can verify that indeed they are in violation during the frame and report it to the Admin or Setup CM. A large portion of CMs fly FSO and are present every frame... we are watching   :noid
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Nefarious

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2011, 05:46:39 PM »
Man, its not about the b24 but the b29...
You have the same speed of your target, but your target has 3*20mms and 36*50cals plus hard like crazy. Not to talk about the ponies and jugs BnZing you. GL Jappos, i wont take part in this FSO, just as the majority of my squad. Have fun.  :salute

Make sure you adjust your numbers accordingly.  :D
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline ghostdancer

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2011, 05:56:38 PM »
So the B29s are limited to 22,001 ft but the fighters are not, correct Nef?

And yes, I agree that speed is not the real issue. The durability and firepower of the B29s are going to play a larger aspect in the engagements. Right now Nef has 24 flights hitting three targets. So lets say 8 flights per target. That means 24 B29s per target plus escorts versus a large force of IJN fighters (possibly Ki61s, Ki84s, and N1K2s). The exact side split is TBD.

I think that is going to be the real tricky part. Having enough IJN/IJA fighters to balance things out without having to many. Like all bomber engagements it really comes down to group level attacks on the bomber formations. The B29 is more heavily armed than the B17 and B24 but how that equates to how many more IJA / IJN there should be (what the side split of forces should be) is what needs to be determined.
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Offline Nefarious

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2011, 06:18:36 PM »
So the B29s are limited to 22,001 ft but the fighters are not, correct Nef?

Correct.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline gyrene81

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2011, 06:23:01 PM »
70% ija to 30% allies would be great but, good luck getting 70% of the squads to be willing fly axis on this one.
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Offline ghostdancer

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2011, 06:48:53 PM »
Not sure what Nef is thinking but maybe 60% to 40%, especially since the Axis side has been turning out low recently.
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Offline ImADot

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2011, 10:50:00 AM »
Interesting observation.

According to what I've read, and talking with a few folks who flew B-17s and B-24s in WWII, bombers always flew at maximum weight, trading off bombs vs. fuel depending on the distance to their target.  But always at maximum weight.  As the old saw goes, "nothing is more useless than the fuel you leave in the truck, or the runway that is behind you."  I have never - yet - heard of a RL instance where bombers were loaded with less fuel in order weigh less and fly faster.


Sounds like something for the Wishlist:

Make it so every heavy bomber leaves the hangar at max weight; depending on bombload chosen fuel would be added/subtracted.  If a small bombload is chosen, and max fuel won't bring it to max weight, then they have to choose a different bomb loadout.

(If we're shooting for "realism" here)   ;)
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Offline HighTone

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2011, 03:22:53 PM »
Man, its not about the b24 but the b29...
You have the same speed of your target, but your target has 3*20mms and 36*50cals plus hard like crazy. Not to talk about the ponies and jugs BnZing you. GL Jappos, i wont take part in this FSO, just as the majority of my squad. Have fun.  :salute

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Offline CHAPPY

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Re: April FSO: Ketsu Go
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2011, 05:03:15 PM »
 :rofl