Author Topic: P63  (Read 18630 times)

Offline Pigslilspaz

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Re: P63
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2011, 01:12:39 PM »
+4
Sexiest plane ever award.

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Offline Guppy35

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Re: P63
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2011, 01:40:49 PM »
I grew up with John Sandberg's P63 racer less then a mile from my house.  I used to run out the door to catch it in flight when I'd hear that Allison roaring, and I spent a fair amount of time at the hanger drooling over her.  I love the 63.  But like the Spitfire XII, my true love, the 63 is down the list.  Hopefully someday, but too many more significant birds need to make it in game first.



Edited to add a couple of profiles.  I have a template for the 63 cause I like it that much :)

« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 01:51:33 PM by Guppy35 »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: P63
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2011, 02:09:14 PM »
Interesting nose art on the Soviet P-63. 

ack-ack
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Offline Pigslilspaz

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Re: P63
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2011, 06:03:15 PM »
Interesting nose art on the Soviet P-63. 

ack-ack

You'd think it'd be Белл ловушка

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Offline Saxman

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Re: P63
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2011, 06:08:09 PM »
Interesting nose art on the Soviet P-63. 

ack-ack

Could be one of the ex-USAAF birds they just slapped VVS insignia.
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Offline Rino

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Re: P63
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2011, 08:15:15 PM »
     Guppy's opinion doesn't count, because his war stopped in 1943  :D
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: P63
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2011, 11:21:40 PM »
Interesting nose art on the Soviet P-63. 

ack-ack

It was the nose art of the US Ferry pilot who got stranded in it in Alaska.
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Offline Ping

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Re: P63
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2011, 02:53:14 PM »
M-18 :noid

 Just wanted to point out that you surely meant Beaufighter
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Offline ariansworld

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Re: P63
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2011, 11:10:56 PM »
Just wanted to point out that you surely meant P63
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: P63
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2011, 11:17:08 PM »
Fixed for accuracy.

Exactly.  Beaufighter.  Just like Ping said :aok
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Offline 321BAR

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Re: P63
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2011, 11:31:35 PM »
Just wanted to point out that you surely meant M-18 :noid
:noid
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Offline Vinkman

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Re: P63
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2011, 01:31:37 PM »
Can we have a p63?
General characteristics

    * Crew: 1
    * Length: 32 ft 8 in (10.0 m)
    * Wingspan: 38 ft 4 in (11.7 m)
    * Height: 12 ft 7 in (3.8 m)
    * Wing area: 248 sq ft (23 m²)
    * Empty weight: 6,800 lb (3,100 kg)
    * Loaded weight: 8,800 lb (4,000 kg)
    * Max takeoff weight: 10,700 lb (4,900 kg)
    * Powerplant: 1× Allison V-1710-117 liquid-cooled V-12, 1,800 hp (1,340 kW)

Performance

    * Maximum speed: 410 mph (660 km/h) at 25,000 ft (7,620 m)
    * Range: 450 mi[30] (725 km)
    * Ferry range: 2200 mi (3,540 km)
    * Service ceiling: 43,000 ft (13,100 m)
    * Rate of climb: 2,500 ft/min (12.7 m/s)
    * Wing loading: 35.48 lb/sq ft (173.91 kg/m²)
    * Power/mass: 0.20 hp/lb (0.34 kW/kg)

Armament

    * Guns:
          o 1× 37 mm M4 cannon firing through the propeller hub
          o 4× 0.50 in (12.7mm) M2 Browning machine guns (two in the nose, two in the wings)
    * Bombs: 1,500 lb (680 kg) bomb load on wing and fuselage



From what I understand it was used by the russians a good bit.

+2  :aok
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Offline Vinkman

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Re: P63
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2011, 03:20:52 PM »
The case for the P-63 in Aces High

While the single seat, single engine, liquid cooled V-12s were the premier fighters for Great Britain, Germany, and Italy, The U.S. Struggled to compete with its V-12 powered offerings at the outset of the war in Europe. The biggest factor in that struggle was the Allison 1710, the only V-12 available to American Manufacturers, which in 1941 was under developed, and underpowered. North American Aviation made the decision to abandon Allison for the British developed Merlin, hence the most successful V-12 powered American Fighter of the war, the Mustang, can't be considered all American from a design and engineering stand point. The Bell P-63 Kingcobra was the last and best attempt by American engineers to develop a single seat, single engine, V-12 powered fighter.   
The second generation of Bell's mid-engine single seat fighter concept, the Kingcobra, possessed impressive performance numbers:
 
Climb Rate [ref 1]
0 ft                  5000 ft                10,000ft                 15,000 ft   20,000 ft                 25,000 ft   30,000 ft
3.67k ft/min   3.73k ft/min   3.7k ft/min   3.55k ft/min   3.27k ft/min   2.6k ft/min   1.96k ft/min

Top Speed * [ref 2]
                               P-63A-1     P-47D-20     P-38J-15   P-51B-5
War Emergency Power   60"/3000 rpm   56"/2700 rpm   60"/3000 rpm   67"/3000 rpm
Speed @ 10,000 ft                         372          367                     383                     395
Speed @ 20,000 ft                         397          401                     414                     411
Speed @ 25,000 ft                         397          414                   420                     424
Speed @ 30,000 ft                         389          423          417                     433
*note: This data was for these planes tested during the same flight test. As such its relative values are accurate, but actual values may differ from other flight test results. The P-63A with WEP rating of 1325 HP. The C' model P-63 could run with 80" of manifold pressure, producing 1800 HP. No top speed test data for C' model found to date. [ref 3]

Roll Rate  & Turn performance.
I'm still searching for a source of the objective numbers, which are not quoted in Matthews book, but this quote from the NACA test results in [ref 4]: "the maximum rate of roll possible with full aileron deflection is exceeded by few current planes for which comparable data are available.", indicated the roll rate was excellent. Similarly, but much less objectively, these excerpts give an indication of turn performance. "With respect to maneuverability, the Kingcobra received high marks from the Air Force. The Kingcobra also consistently turned tighter circles than the other three fighters [P-51B-5, P-38J-15, P-47D-20]. In dives tests the Kingcobra had a slight advantage over the P-38. In full power dives the P-47 and the P-51 showed a marked advantage over the P-63. When subjected to zoom tests at full power, the Kingcobra was better than the P-47 and the P-38. [ref 5]
 
Great climb rate, excellent roll rate, good turn performance, good top speed, so why was the Kingcobra pass up by the U.S. Army?
In Europe the fighter mission had become a very specialized version of the air superiority role, consisting of very long range fighter sweeps. The qualities preferred were a large combat radius, and top speed, and a gun package ideal for killing fast maneuverable fighter aircraft. The P-63 is a poor match to the Mustang in combat radius, and its gun package has only two or four .50 caliber machine guns for the anti-fighter roll. The 37mm with 58 rounds, was a less than ideal weapon against evasive, agile fighters. The Mustang was better suited to the specific mission the Army was most interested in, in late 1943. Coupled with the need to provide planes to the Russians, and the Russians familiarity with Bell aircraft and the mid-engine layout of the Bell fighters, the decision to send the P-63 to the Russians, was a practical, and logical one, more than it was proof of a lack capability on the part of the P-63. On paper the P-63 seems to have a different attribute mix than the Mustang. When assessed versus the full variety of missions that play out in the MA, the P-63 would be better than the Mustang in the anti-bomber roll, ground attack, and it's better maneuverability but less than ideal gun package would make for a fun dog fighter, similar to the 109-K4
AP ammo might make it a good tank buster, but the game would employ Russian designation P-63s and they were not issues AP rounds [ref 6]
One of the great parts about Aces High is the ability to assess all the planes against each other in a variety of roles. Some of those roles will be outside of  how  they earned their reputations during the war. Messerschmitts dog fighting Zeros, Spitfires vs Corsairs. P-51s attacking large bomber formations instead of defending them.  In such matchups the Aces High players get a unique opportunity to judge whether the reputations of these planes outpaces their actual ability, or perhaps in the case of the P-63, whether the reputation as a sub-par aircraft is a complete misunderstanding of the facts surrounding its deployment to the eastern front.   

The case for the P-63 in Aces High II is to see for ourselves if the last and best attempt by American engineers to develop a single seat, single engine, V-12 powered fighter was just another weapons system footnote as many are lead to believe, or an under appreciated hidden jewel in the arsenal of democracy. Aces High would be the perfect laboratory to prove what Allison and Bell were truly capable of  after they were given sufficient time and resources to develop their concepts to their full potential.

[ref1. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 188]
[ref2. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 188]
[ref3. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 395]
[ref4. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 200]
[ref5. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 194]
[ref6. Attack of the Airacobras, Dimity Loza p. needed]
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Offline Saxman

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Re: P63
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2011, 06:07:09 PM »

The case for the P-63 in Aces High II is to see for ourselves if the last and best attempt by American engineers to develop a single seat, single engine, V-12 powered fighter was just another weapons system footnote as many are lead to believe, or an under appreciated hidden jewel in the arsenal of democracy. Aces High would be the perfect laboratory to prove what Allison and Bell were truly capable of  after they were given sufficient time and resources to develop their concepts to their full potential.


Uh, no. This is no case WHATSOEVER for adding the P-63 because it is NOT what is used as criteria for whether an aircraft is added. Because it cannot be conclusively and without argument proven that the P-63 meets HiTech's criteria there is no case AT ALL for adding the P-63. Unless HTC were to add a "What If?" arena, the P-63 is just another almost-made-it that may have a place in history, but has NO place in the game.
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Offline Pigslilspaz

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Re: P63
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2011, 04:44:59 AM »
Uh, no. This is no case WHATSOEVER for adding the P-63 because it is NOT what is used as criteria for whether an aircraft is added. Because it cannot be conclusively and without argument proven that the P-63 meets HiTech's criteria there is no case AT ALL for adding the P-63. Unless HTC were to add a "What If?" arena, the P-63 is just another almost-made-it that may have a place in history, but has NO place in the game.

Chill out. How I see it, it has the requirements. Numbers/Squadron Strength/Combat. Find 1-2 sources that PROVE that it wouldn't qualify.

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The rules are simple: Don't be a dick.
Quote from: hitech
It was skuzzy's <----- fault.
Quote from: Pyro
We just witnessed a miracle and I want you to @#$%^& acknowledge it!