A few GV wishes I had in mind...

[EskimoJoe]

1) I wish HE rounds would explode and damage a tank's external points (IE turret,
tracks, etc.) Currently it seems as if HE rounds either bounce off or simply 'ding'
the enemy tank, zero penetration and zero HE damage.

If this is a non-issue, apologies.

2) Tanks 'colliding' with shrubs, trees, etc. This is probably the single most degrading
factor regarding tank warfare in Aces High. One cannot plow through a hedge or knock
over a six foot tall, three inch thick bamboo tree. If one doesn't enter a barn in the
correct fashion, the tank will come to a complete stop or roll over for a belly-rub.

3) Once issue two is fixed, more variety/spice added to the ground. Give us a few more
buildings to hide in, give us non-dense forests with a relatively high canopy to fight under.

4) Tank rounds cannot penetrate leaves? It's quite frustrating when you have a good angle
on the rear of an entrenched enemy only to find that a clump of leaves make your tank shell
merely 'poof' into nonexistence.

These are just a couple that I've thought of, there are a handful more that I can't remember
for the life of me. Feel free to add, flame retardant on.

[SmokinLoon]

1) I wish HE rounds would explode and damage a tank's external points (IE turret,
tracks, etc.) Currently it seems as if HE rounds either bounce off or simply 'ding'
the enemy tank, zero penetration and zero HE damage.

If this is a non-issue, apologies.

2) Tanks 'colliding' with shrubs, trees, etc. This is probably the single most degrading
factor regarding tank warfare in Aces High. One cannot plow through a hedge or knock
over a six foot tall, three inch thick bamboo tree. If one doesn't enter a barn in the
correct fashion, the tank will come to a complete stop or roll over for a belly-rub.

3) Once issue two is fixed, more variety/spice added to the ground. Give us a few more
buildings to hide in, give us non-dense forests with a relatively high canopy to fight under.

4) Tank rounds cannot penetrate leaves? It's quite frustrating when you have a good angle
on the rear of an entrenched enemy only to find that a clump of leaves make your tank shell
merely 'poof' into nonexistence.

These are just a couple that I've thought of, there are a handful more that I can't remember
for the life of me. Feel free to add, flame retardant on.

1> Unless there are huge amounts of HE in the projectile, the HE rounds simply disintegrate upon impact on hardened armor and do little but scratch the paint and give headaches to the crew.  Against softer or less armored vehicles, the shrapnel from the HE projectile and/or the shredding it causes will puncture tires, throw treads, destroy external components (i.e: guns), or damage engines.  I think the HE rounds vs gv's in AH is modeled about right.  Armor works.

2> I do not know exactly how things are "coaded", but Im willing to bet that AH has coded into its maps certain sizes of trees, shrubs, hedges, etc.  The only real way to deal with of those dreaded small shrubs that flip tanks is for HTC to code them out of the maps.  Regarding hedges, trees, etc that can not be destroyed (or broken through), remember that if that were the case then each time the a tree or hedge was destroyed or changed in some manner it would cause that much more drag on the server and your pc.  HTC drew the line and they went with server/pc performance.  I agree it would be nice to plow over that hedge and have that Tiger perform as it really did, but programming and server load are obvious issues.

3> I was going to ask for LESS stuff to hide in, fewer trees, fewer mounds, etc.  I'd like to see more open firing lanes.  Some maps have them some maps dont.

4> See response #2.  That wee little tree branch just save that enemy Tiger from the HVAP round you sent towards his rear, and now he has just been alerted of your presence.  Your second shot does the same.  Before you can fire your third shot at 800 yards, that Tiger sends an 88mm right into your front hull sending you back to the tower.  Fun, isnt it.  I feel your pain but again HTC needs to draw the line somewhere in how it codes what.     

[gyrene81]

1> Unless there are huge amounts of HE in the projectile, the HE rounds simply disintegrate upon impact on hardened armor and do little but scratch the paint and give headaches to the crew.  Against softer or less armored vehicles, the shrapnel from the HE projectile and/or the shredding it causes will puncture tires, throw treads, destroy external components (i.e: guns), or damage engines.  I think the HE rounds vs gv's in AH is modeled about right.  Armor works.

depends on the caliber of round, armor thickness and distance to target. absolutely forget about the idea of killing a tank with an h.e. round.

2> I do not know exactly how things are "coaded", but Im willing to bet that AH has coded into its maps certain sizes of trees, shrubs, hedges, etc.  The only real way to deal with of those dreaded small shrubs that flip tanks is for HTC to code them out of the maps.  Regarding hedges, trees, etc that can not be destroyed (or broken through), remember that if that were the case then each time the a tree or hedge was destroyed or changed in some manner it would cause that much more drag on the server and your pc.  HTC drew the line and they went with server/pc performance.  I agree it would be nice to plow over that hedge and have that Tiger perform as it really did, but programming and server load are obvious issues.

the trees and bushes are modeled as solid non destructible objects, that's why we can't drive over or through most of them and the reason why all shells simply explode without penetrating them. i wouldn't want them destroyed then rendered again every time a tank drove through, but it would be nice if a 4ft tall banana tree didn't act like a tank barrier. tanks should be able to drive over/through almost all trees and hedges except for the largest ones and if they are simply rendered as pass through objects there would not be any performance hit to the servers or the player systems.

4> See response #2.  That wee little tree branch just save that enemy Tiger from the HVAP round you sent towards his rear, and now he has just been alerted of your presence.  Your second shot does the same.  Before you can fire your third shot at 800 yards, that Tiger sends an 88mm right into your front hull sending you back to the tower.  Fun, isnt it.  I feel your pain but again HTC needs to draw the line somewhere in how it codes what.  

i can guarantee you a 3 inch tree branch would not stop 2 rounds of 75mm ap...the first one maybe...the second round would have no obstruction.

[AWwrgwy]

I would like to know where the notion that tanks can just drive willy-nilly through trees come from.

As near as I can figure, Bulldozers have tracks. Tanks have tracks. Bulldozers knock over trees and hedges. Tanks should be able to knock over trees and bushes.

Normandy was covered in hedgerows. Tanks couldn't seem to get through them.

I was watching "Go For Broke" the other day. A movie about Nisse fighting in Italy. They were blowing a road through a forest to get a tank into position to fire on the Germans, blowing down 4 inch diameter trees with dynamite. Why didn't they just drive over them?


wrongway

[gyrene81]

would depend on the type of tree and density of the forest they were dealing with, a 4 inch thick oak tree has a large deep root ball with a tap root that can be as thick as what is above ground...an 8 inch thick banana or palm tree has almost no root ball, no tap root and it sits shallow in the ground...a 6 inch thick aspen tree has a large somewhat shallow root ball with a short tap root.

guess which ones are stoppin tanks in their tracks in ah in the middle of a field

[Ping]

Ferns?

[BigKev03]

I would like to know where the notion that tanks can just drive willy-nilly through trees come from.

As near as I can figure, Bulldozers have tracks. Tanks have tracks. Bulldozers knock over trees and hedges. Tanks should be able to knock over trees and bushes.

Normandy was covered in hedgerows. Tanks couldn't seem to get through them.

I was watching "Go For Broke" the other day. A movie about Nisse fighting in Italy. They were blowing a road through a forest to get a tank into position to fire on the Germans, blowing down 4 inch diameter trees with dynamite. Why didn't they just drive over them?


wrongway

It may have been because the tank did not have the torque required to plow through the trees.  Bulldozers have very good torque and can do the hard grubbing and take down trees.  Tank back in WWII (depending on type) probably didnt have the torque to handle more than a few trees at a time of more than 4".  In Vietnam the M48 Patton was used to plow through jungle.  Like a previous poster said it will depend on the density of the trees or shrubs you are trying to breach.  The hedgerows in Normandy were centurys old and were thick as thick could be.  However, after field modification the allied tanks did breach them with the blades attached to the front of the tanks.  So with a little ingenuity the tanks did breach.  I understand in the game why it is like it is but in real life yes a tank now days would have no problem plowing trees up to 10" down if the density was not to bad.

BigKev

[EskimoJoe]

I remember seeing wartime footage of a T-34 blowing through
a farm building. I assumed that if a tank such as a T-34 can
plow through a building, it can knock over a shrub (not hedge)
or a puny little bamboo stick.

[Reaper90]

1> Unless there are huge amounts of HE in the projectile, the HE rounds simply disintegrate upon impact on hardened armor and do little but scratch the paint and give headaches to the crew.  Against softer or less armored vehicles, the shrapnel from the HE projectile and/or the shredding it causes will puncture tires, throw treads, destroy external components (i.e: guns), or damage engines.  I think the HE rounds vs gv's in AH is modeled about right.  Armor works.

I agree an HE round is not going to penetrate the heavily armoured sections of a tank body, but like the OP suggested, less hardened parts, mainly tracks, would be easy meat for a 76mm HE round. I remember seeing documentation of a German Panther tank that was being restored. It was knocked out in fighting against US troops and captured. What took it out? It appeared to be a 0.50 cal projectile lodged in the hub of the left front drive wheel, jamming that track. A complete fluke? Yes, probably a one-in-a-billion chance. But the fact remains.... 76mm HE round would shred the tracks of any WWII tank with a direct hit. A direct hit from the rear into the engine compartment on most tanks with an HE round would also likely be a day-ender.

2> I do not know exactly how things are "coaded", but Im willing to bet that AH has coded into its maps certain sizes of trees, shrubs, hedges, etc.  The only real way to deal with of those dreaded small shrubs that flip tanks is for HTC to code them out of the maps.  Regarding hedges, trees, etc that can not be destroyed (or broken through), remember that if that were the case then each time the a tree or hedge was destroyed or changed in some manner it would cause that much more drag on the server and your pc.  HTC drew the line and they went with server/pc performance.  I agree it would be nice to plow over that hedge and have that Tiger perform as it really did, but programming and server load are obvious issues.

I say "coad" all but the largest trees and the farm houses/barns to be "invisible" to the GV, i.e. eye candy only, just like the small bushes already are... we see them, but the GV drives through them as if they are not there. I'm OK with not being able to drive over big trees and push barns over with my tank. If I wanted to crush stuff I'd be playing a Monster Truck game. However, a twig should not stop an AP round, a banana tree should not stop a tank, and a shrubbery should not flip a tank. Even worse, you can be crawling at 3 mph and touch a building at just the wrong angle and wind up on your side. "Coad" the big trees so that only the trunk is ab "obstacle" and all of the greenery is invisible to the GV and the round, and is seen only, and not "felt." Don't model damage to these objects... if you drive "over" a banana tree, it doesn't have to be damaged, just let me pass through it like is already the case with all of the smaller bushes.

[EskimoJoe]

I say "coad" all but the largest trees and the farm houses/barns to be "invisible" to the GV, i.e. eye candy only, just like the small bushes already are... we see them, but the GV drives through them as if they are not there. I'm OK with not being able to drive over big trees and push barns over with my tank. If I wanted to crush stuff I'd be playing a Monster Truck game. However, a twig should not stop an AP round, a banana tree should not stop a tank, and a shrubbery should not flip a tank. Even worse, you can be crawling at 3 mph and touch a building at just the wrong angle and wind up on your side. "Coad" the big trees so that only the trunk is ab "obstacle" and all of the greenery is invisible to the GV and the round, and is seen only, and not "felt." Don't model damage to these objects... if you drive "over" a banana tree, it doesn't have to be damaged, just let me pass through it like is already the case with all of the smaller bushes.

I had thought this over a bit, and concluded that it simply would
not be feasible with our game. It would end up being exploited,
with tanks hiding inside of (or 'phasing' into) certain objects.

I have yet to think of a way around it, and will probably leave it
up to more thoughtful members of the community (hence, this thread).

[LLogann]

QFT.  Our HE rounds should be doing a better job of tracking our armored vehicles.

I agree an HE round is not going to penetrate the heavily armoured sections of a tank body, but like the OP suggested, less hardened parts, mainly tracks, would be easy meat for a 76mm HE round. I remember seeing documentation of a German Panther tank that was being restored. It was knocked out in fighting against US troops and captured. What took it out? It appeared to be a 0.50 cal projectile lodged in the hub of the left front drive wheel, jamming that track. A complete fluke? Yes, probably a one-in-a-billion chance. But the fact remains.... 76mm HE round would shred the tracks of any WWII tank with a direct hit. A direct hit from the rear into the engine compartment on most tanks with an HE round would also likely be a day-ender.

[Yeager]

tanks with tracks in neutral gear screaming down hills going 75-85 MPHs than coming to an INSTANT stop where the hill folds back into the level terrain........that one always bugged me.

Being in a GV, driving along in any GV, and then hitting some minutia on the terrain (shrub, corner of building) that flips over the GV...sometimes multiple flips until the GV stops...then it FLIPS AGAIN.......all on flat terrain, back onto its tracks again, and OFF WE GO!!!! that one also buggs me.

i do LOL at GVs in AH.  I like the new approach coming for sure.  Shows that HTC wants to evolve the thing for the better.

[moot]

Instant stop is like auto retracting flaps.  It's a forgiving alternative to more realistic behavior, e.g. tracks coming apart above a certain speed, crew incapacitated on high speed "reunion" with ground level, etc.  And an alternative to the old model - recoiling like you were on the moon @ low gravity.  We got the same treatment for rolling over on steep inclines.. The vehicle resets upright.  Pretty forgiving.

Impassable objects like trees might simulate the things that a real tank wouldn't ignore or be able to drive thru/over.  I dislike trees/bushes stopping shells and tanks or flipping them over almost as much as CV autoflak, but without these obstacles the open country would be almost totally barren battlefield.  Not sure if I prefer one or the other, but uncollidable branches and leaves for tank shells sure seems like the best compromise.

[Flayed]

 The only one that reallllly bugs me is my AP shells not going through a few leaves hanging down from a tree especially when it's nowhere near the trunk.       Other than that I can live with the rest.

[Reaper90]

I had thought this over a bit, and concluded that it simply would
not be feasible with our game. It would end up being exploited,
with tanks hiding inside of (or 'phasing' into) certain objects.

You misunderstand what I am saying... im my suggestion, a GV could not "phase into" an object and hide... they currently can now, they can sit amongst a group of trees and be protected from AP rounds by mere leaves.

My suggestion is to make all foilage and small trees completely permeable to tank fire, as if it weren't there. The only objects that would stop tank rounds would be tree trunks, buildings, hills, hedgerows, and of course, GV's.