Author Topic: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!  (Read 4832 times)

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #135 on: April 05, 2011, 04:29:05 AM »
Ahh, I get it,  so humans have no worth and everyone in need is expendable as they drag you down. Well I hope you shoot yourself in the face when your down on your luck because you'll just be burden on the rest of us and worthless too.


Ardy,  I guess we'd look at it the other way. Everyone has inherent worth and is therefore not to be considered a vehicle for the provision of another's wants/needs. That leaves individual, voluntary charity an entirely individual choice - and one many in the US choose to support at the most generous levels.

As for your wish, it's a little, uh, hyperbolic at best, unhinged at worst.

See, a big part of the problem for the working poor is that they're also "helped". Consider blockbusting in the 60's. It was intended to "help" yet destroyed property values and the very neighborhoods of most of those people - the Mt. Elliott I cite being one of them. I say think - and take a look at some of the unintended consequences of some of the policies of transfer.

Besides, you never addressed the asymmetry issue - an issue that, contrary to your stated value that all have value, places some (the receivers) at a higher value than those placed as subservient to them (the providers). If you want to argue this issue, I'd deal with that - rather than resorting to some sort of emotional-appeal sleight of hand that has, as premise, some supposition that compelled transfer payments equal compassion or helping. That's demonstrably untrue in many cases.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 06:48:27 AM by PJ_Godzilla »
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Offline sluggish

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #136 on: April 05, 2011, 09:48:52 AM »
Ardy,  I guess we'd look at it the other way. Everyone has inherent worth and is therefore not to be considered a vehicle for the provision of another's wants/needs. That leaves individual, voluntary charity an entirely individual choice - and one many in the US choose to support at the most generous levels.

As for your wish, it's a little, uh, hyperbolic at best, unhinged at worst.

See, a big part of the problem for the working poor is that they're also "helped". Consider blockbusting in the 60's. It was intended to "help" yet destroyed property values and the very neighborhoods of most of those people - the Mt. Elliott I cite being one of them. I say think - and take a look at some of the unintended consequences of some of the policies of transfer.

Besides, you never addressed the asymmetry issue - an issue that, contrary to your stated value that all have value, places some (the receivers) at a higher value than those placed as subservient to them (the providers). If you want to argue this issue, I'd deal with that - rather than resorting to some sort of emotional-appeal sleight of hand that has, as premise, some supposition that compelled transfer payments equal compassion or helping. That's demonstrably untrue in many cases.

Well put.

Offline dedalos

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #137 on: April 05, 2011, 10:14:10 AM »
KayBayRay,

Where is my answer?
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Ardy123

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #138 on: April 05, 2011, 01:05:16 PM »
See, a big part of the problem for the working poor is that they're also "helped". Consider blockbusting in the 60's. It was intended to "help" yet destroyed property values and the very neighborhoods of most of those people - the Mt. Elliott I cite being one of them. I say think - and take a look at some of the unintended consequences of some of the policies of transfer.

Block busting was not intended to 'help' people (unless your a land developer), it was all about tapping into peoples racism and scaring them into selling their houses for less than their worth by telling them that ethnic minorities were moving in. Yes, it started because the government allowed neighborhoods to not be racially segregated, but the loss in property value and peoples reactions were based in racism and nothing else. I would argue that it illustrated how racist our parents &/or grand parents were more than anything else.

Besides, you never addressed the asymmetry issue - an issue that, contrary to your stated value that all have value, places some (the receivers) at a higher value than those placed as subservient to them (the providers). If you want to argue this issue, I'd deal with that - rather than resorting to some sort of emotional-appeal sleight of hand that has, as premise, some supposition that compelled transfer payments equal compassion or helping. That's demonstrably untrue in many cases.

I don't believe it places the receivers above the providers, we all live in a society, in my case American society, and at a certain level we are in it together, so instead of taking the attitude, "I have mine, screw you", we all benefit from a little compassion towards one-another or more importantly doing what we can to not leave members of our group behind. Now I am not advocating for encouraging others to "milk" the system, but there is quite a lot of gray area between enabling others too "milk" the system and helping others get off their feet.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 01:18:59 PM by Ardy123 »
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Offline dedalos

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #139 on: April 05, 2011, 01:31:17 PM »
Block busting was not intended to 'help' people (unless your a land developer), it was all about tapping into peoples racism and scaring them into selling their houses for less than their worth by telling them that ethnic minorities were moving in. Yes, it started because the government allowed neighborhoods to not be racially segregated, but the loss in property value and peoples reactions were based in racism and nothing else. I would argue that it illustrated how racist our parents &/or grand parents were more than anything else.

I don't believe it places the receivers above the providers, we all live in a society, in my case American society, and at a certain level we are in it together, so instead of taking the attitude, "I have mine, screw you", we all benefit from a little compassion towards one-another or more importantly doing what we can to not leave members of our group behind. Now I am not advocating for encouraging others to "milk" the system, but there is quite a lot of gray area between enabling others too "milk" the system and helping others get off their feet.



Exactly, and instead of trying to pull everything away because some milk the system, I'd like to see people not to put every one in the same category and start calling for going after the milkers instead of calling for taking benefits away.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #140 on: April 05, 2011, 02:27:11 PM »
Block busting was not intended to 'help' people (unless your a land developer), it was all about tapping into peoples racism and scaring them into selling their houses for less than their worth by telling them that ethnic minorities were moving in. Yes, it started because the government allowed neighborhoods to not be racially segregated, but the loss in property value and peoples reactions were based in racism and nothing else. I would argue that it illustrated how racist our parents &/or grand parents were more than anything else.

I don't believe it places the receivers above the providers, we all live in a society, in my case American society, and at a certain level we are in it together, so instead of taking the attitude, "I have mine, screw you", we all benefit from a little compassion towards one-another or more importantly doing what we can to not leave members of our group behind. Now I am not advocating for encouraging others to "milk" the system, but there is quite a lot of gray area between enabling others too "milk" the system and helping others get off their feet.



The intent of block busting is not at issue. Would it have made a difference if the intent were pure? This gets at the heart of my point - and one I'm not sure you grasp. A number of redistributive /helping people programs are sold based on intent. I'm not buying, precisely because of their unintended consequences.

Now, you want to talk in generalities about "helping people" and I say that anytime you inject your "intent" into the political arena, politics WILL corrupt the cash flow (sso best to keep the cash out of it). Understand, the devil is in the details here. Understand, also, the poor tend not to be well-connected or have much access to lobbyists. That's why there's a line of well-heeled sharpies who purport to represent them, none of whom do, who continue to siphon large cash flows while you continue to speak in fuzzy generalities about helping people. Understand this: you/I/anyone will never see more than pittance wages from the carpetbagger. There's a reason for that.

In short, private charities have excelllent pass-through rates. Too bad the federal government can't say the same. I've worked both for and with them. You simply don't understand from whence they come.

As for racism in block-busting: No. You can't bolster the fuzzily advanced cause you cite. Here's what happened - and still happens to some extent today in Section 8 housing: the Federal Government subsidizes people from low-income areas to move into better-income areas. Inevitably, the crime rates increase in the transplant areas. Then people begin to flee, abandoning what was a better neighborhood to become, once again, a low-income area. This begs the question: is the environment a product of the inhabitants or vice-versa? The other embarassment was HUD's creation of entire neighborhoods, most of which became crime foci and destroyed local property values before themselves being destroyed (because infested with criminals - nand who doesn't consider "the projects" to be undesirable?).
See for their latest screw-up, e.g., http://www.statebrief.com/briefblog/2011/02/21/the-feds%E2%80%99-destruction-of-our-home-values/ This last documents the history of the Fed's involvement/near mandate of high-risk mortgages - the underwriting of which was root cause of the recent real estate bubble and bust.

So, go ahead and talk about helping and feeling all you want. Facts are what count. You need to sharpen your argument. What, exactly, are you advocating?
 
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Offline sluggish

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #141 on: April 05, 2011, 02:36:25 PM »
I don't believe it places the receivers above the providers, we all live in a society, in my case American society, and at a certain level we are in it together, so instead of taking the attitude, "I have mine, screw you", we all benefit from a little compassion towards one-another or more importantly doing what we can to not leave members of our group behind. Now I am not advocating for encouraging others to "milk" the system, but there is quite a lot of gray area between enabling others too "milk" the system and helping others get off their feet.



I agree with everything you said as long as this is all on a voluntary basis.  Forced redistribution DOES place us all in the two categories of the providers and the entitled.

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #142 on: April 05, 2011, 02:42:45 PM »
I agree with everything you said as long as this is all on a voluntary basis.  Forced redistribution DOES place us all in the two categories of the providers and the entitled.

Right, I don't have a screw them attitude. In fact, I recently stepped down from a little side role I had as President of a 501C3. We raised, in one event last year, 4k for the Hati Nursing Foundation. Some people/institutions are good investments - but I reserve the right to make my own call on the matter. This is where I and the Feds seem to part company.

Compelled virtue is no virtue at all. Indeed, what is it making of those who compel? They're all about giving, so long as somebody is "gving" to them. Where's the reciprocity?
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #143 on: April 05, 2011, 02:57:04 PM »
In short, private charities have excelllent pass-through rates. Too bad the federal government can't say the same. I've worked both for and with them. You simply don't understand from whence they come.
I agree with everything you said as long as this is all on a voluntary basis.  Forced redistribution DOES place us all in the two categories of the providers and the entitled.

You do realize that many charities also rely partially on government grants, which are paid for by all of us paying taxes, which is "forced redistribution". And yes, although 4k helps, it's very little considering the damage caused the the amount of people in need in the Haiti disaster.

See for their latest screw-up, e.g., http://www.statebrief.com/briefblog/2011/02/21/the-feds%E2%80%99-destruction-of-our-home-values/ This last documents the history of the Fed's

Nope, that was caused by the feds allowing banks to have much higher leverage ratios, yet for political reasons, people try to twist it to fit their political agenda.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 03:05:20 PM by Ardy123 »
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #144 on: April 05, 2011, 03:06:48 PM »
You do realize that many charities also rely partially on government grants, which are paid for by all of us paying taxes, which is "forced redistribution". And yes, although 4k helps, it's very little considering the damage caused the the amount of people in need in the Haiti disaster.

Nope, that was caused by the feds allowing banks to have much higher leverage ratios, yet for political reasons, people try to twist it to fit their political agenda.


Your first sentence evades the point. Your second: how much did you send, if you're in a mood to be critical of me?

See, asymmetrical. I didn't do enough, per your statement. I'm sorry, sire. Perhaps I should slave harder while you play.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Ardy123

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #145 on: April 05, 2011, 03:14:37 PM »
Your first sentence evades the point. Your second: how much did you send, if you're in a mood to be critical of me?

See, asymmetrical. I didn't do enough, per your statement. I'm sorry, sire. Perhaps I should slave harder while you play.

lol, the irony, you evade my point completely, yet call me out for 'evading'.

and no, it was not a contest on giving, it was to point out that individuals although help, sadly cannot or won't necessary on their own, donate enough to put a stop the problem, as for them, donations are more about making them 'feel good' or bolstering their ego, than actually helping solve a problem.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 03:16:32 PM by Ardy123 »
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #146 on: April 05, 2011, 04:08:00 PM »
lol, the irony, you evade my point completely, yet call me out for 'evading'.

and no, it was not a contest on giving, it was to point out that individuals although help, sadly cannot or won't necessary on their own, donate enough to put a stop the problem, as for them, donations are more about making them 'feel good' or bolstering their ego, than actually helping solve a problem.


First, you might want to understand the meaning of irony - it's when literal and figurative are opposed. Second, the point was that virtue compelled isn't virtue at all, though I recognize your attempt to obfuscate here by making the spurious claim that government is the backbone of charity. Rather it functions often to displace charity. There's significant evidence that government funding tends to displace giving and/or private fundraisng when applied. Again, you posit something in general terms without any apparent burden of fact or education.

First, the raw numbers on American giving. It's huge: http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/a-nation-of-givers

I'll cite an academic study on the crowding-out  phenomenon so that you can ignore it and retain your unclouded and fuzzy opinion: http://econ.ucsd.edu/~jandreon/Publications/AER03-A&P.pdf

As for your fatuous dismissal of giver's motives, can you read donors bones as well? How do you make such a statement? Try a little experiment some time: donate something. Then you will know the motive in at least one case.

Again, I'm struck by the true irony here: the non-contributor setting terms for the contributor: the figurative meaning in opposition to the literal. Asymmetry... What else can I get you today, Sire?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 04:13:28 PM by PJ_Godzilla »
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Penguin

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #147 on: April 05, 2011, 04:12:58 PM »
First, you might want to understand the meaning of irony - it's when literal and figurative are opposed. Second, the point was that virtue compelled isn't virtue at all, though I recognize your attempt to obfuscate here by making the spurious claim that government is the backbone of charity. Rather it functions often to displace charity. There's significant evidence that government funding tends to displace giving and/or private fundraisng when applied. Again, you posit something in general terms without any apparent burden of education.

First, the raw numbers on American giving. It's huge: http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/a-nation-of-givers

I'll cite an academic study on the crowding-out  phenomenon so that you can ignore it and retain your unclouded and fuzzy opinion: http://econ.ucsd.edu/~jandreon/Publications/AER03-A&P.pdf

As for your fatuous dismissal of giver's motives, can you read donors bones as well? How do you make such a statement? Try a little experiment some time: grow up, learn something, become gainfully employed, then donate something. Then you will know the motive in at least one case.

I'll tell you what is totally asymmetrical: arguing with a 15 year old. Don't try to tell me I'm far off.

Care to give us a summary of that study?  It looks LOOOOONG!

-Penguin

Offline Ardy123

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #148 on: April 05, 2011, 04:19:54 PM »
First, you might want to understand the meaning of irony - it's when literal and figurative are opposed. Second, the point was that virtue compelled isn't virtue at all, though I recognize your attempt to obfuscate here by making the spurious claim that government is the backbone of charity. Rather it functions often to displace charity. There's significant evidence that government funding tends to displace giving and/or private fundraisng when applied. Again, you posit something in general terms without any apparent burden of education.

First, the raw numbers on American giving. It's huge: http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/a-nation-of-givers

I'll cite an academic study on the crowding-out  phenomenon so that you can ignore it and retain your unclouded and fuzzy opinion: http://econ.ucsd.edu/~jandreon/Publications/AER03-A&P.pdf

As for your fatuous dismissal of giver's motives, can you read donors bones as well? How do you make such a statement? Try a little experiment some time: grow up, learn something, become gainfully employed, then donate something. Then you will know the motive in at least one case.

I'll tell you what is totally asymmetrical: arguing with a 15 year old. Don't try to tell me I'm far off.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Must have struck a cord with you.. feeling threatened?

Now your trying to pull the age/job card and have resorted to personal insults... The funny part is I probably make more money than you and am also twice that age.

Too bad your reference "The American" is a known clearly biased news outlet, It would be like me quoting "The Huffington Post" to prove my point.
You've shown your face, I'm moving on... have fun little angry one, come back when you get your head out of your poop shoot.



« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 04:22:11 PM by Ardy123 »
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: 1 in 6 Americans are hungry!
« Reply #149 on: April 05, 2011, 04:22:32 PM »
Care to give us a summary of that study?  It looks LOOOOONG!

-Penguin

That's why there's a section labeled "Conclusion". In sum, they find two effects: the org tends to cut back on solicitation when they get government funds and givers tend to give less as well. In short, what's going on is that the elevation of charitable administration by government tends to displace it from the local arena thus.

This has the added impact of making it more distant, less acountable, no doubt. But then, that's part of the reason.

Do a little thought experiment: 3.7T... deduct $650B for defense. Round to $3T. That's enough money to provide a $60k income for 50Million people - 16% of the population of the US. Last I checked, that income level is well above poverty level. The official number of poor in the US is about 40M, many co-occur in the same family. So where's all that money going? Don't look at defense - we already deducted it. Think about it. Then go look. It's publicly available. But please don't anyone tell me it goes to the poor. Most does NOT.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.