Author Topic: Proposal for new strat system.  (Read 4704 times)

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2011, 02:29:44 PM »
Is that what's currently happening? You want the game to give you a reward you can't earn. Crying about it won't help.


On there otherhand you have the players who want strat nerfed so that they can ignore attacks on it and it won't effect their furball.   

I've even seen suggestions like making it just blow up and give some bomber points but not have any other effect. 


Wab



Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline fullmetalbullet

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 834
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2011, 02:36:49 PM »
Is that what's currently happening? You want the game to give you a reward you can't earn. Crying about it won't help.

i would just like to see more bombing raids being done not just once a week and my quad has also talked about this.
"Cry Havoc, And Let Slip The Dogs Of War" Julius Caesar


Offline fullmetalbullet

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 834
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2011, 02:37:32 PM »
but it isn't.



it is a war game. no matter how you look at it, it's a war game.
"Cry Havoc, And Let Slip The Dogs Of War" Julius Caesar


Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2011, 02:44:27 PM »
AH war is only a pretext for air combat.  And that's air combat gameplay, not real air combat which is just a sub category of war.  AH is a game.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Raphael

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2010
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2011, 02:53:32 PM »
its a good idea.
Remember 08/08/2012
 Youtube videos - http://www.youtube.com/user/raphael103/featured
Game ID => Raphael
XO of Jg5

Offline fullmetalbullet

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 834
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2011, 02:54:14 PM »
and what im asking for is to take the ability to resupply strats via C-47 out. all that work and 30 mins their back up because you got supply runners. you take that out and i bet more people would up to stop bombing raids and more people would run bombing raids everyday.

 and yes AH is a war game. you have the 3 major areas for a war game. land, sea, and air. so it is a war game.
"Cry Havoc, And Let Slip The Dogs Of War" Julius Caesar


Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11617
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2011, 03:31:01 PM »
i would just like to see more bombing raids being done not just once a week and my quad has also talked about this.

You can run as many bombing raids as you like. The current setup is pretty good at letting everybody do what they want to do. They just don't always get the results they want.

Offline fullmetalbullet

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 834
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2011, 05:12:22 PM »
You can run as many bombing raids as you like. The current setup is pretty good at letting everybody do what they want to do. They just don't always get the results they want.

yeah because you can resupply them. take that out and it handicaps thats side like its suppose to do.
"Cry Havoc, And Let Slip The Dogs Of War" Julius Caesar


Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2011, 05:15:03 PM »
AH war is only a pretext for air combat.


Incomplete, IMHO.

The MA war is the incubator that spawns QUALITY air combat.  Goal-Oriented-Combat.  Quality air combat in the MA results from the friction between competing strategic missions.  It provides the variety and diversity of unexpected combat situations  that has kept HTC in business for the last decade.  The most intense, hour long, blood curdling, fight to the death bloodbath combat I have ever seen in AH usually occurs at that last base before a reset.  When the defending puts everything they got into the defense like their real lives depended on it and the attackers go all-in throwing every last resource at the target to clinch the win before the third country can destabilize the situation.  However, for that magic synergy to work, the strat system has to mean something.  There has to be a meaningful reward for one side to succeed in a mission and a painful punishment for the other side to fail to stop them.  There have to be clear winners and losers. Not every kid at the soccer match gets a trophy.

Compare that with its opposite, say... in the WWI arena.  There is combat there (when someone actually is in there) but it is devoid of a high level goal, of context, of purpose, of meaning.  There may be some momentary sound and fury, but it signifies nothing.  It may amuse for an hour, but its not the kind of thing that keeps you up to 3am because you're down to that last base and the war is almost won.  Its all sugar and no protein. Inevitably, after the sugar high wears off, its unsatisfying.  And its soooooooo predictable and boring.  There is no where to go but the single furball, nothing else to do, and no reason to do it.  So there is only one scenario, over, and over, and over, and over.

The Furball Lake fairs slightly better for 3 reasons I believe:

1.  WWII has a broader fan base.  No question.
2.  The Furball Lake has a MUCH more varied plane-set available.
3.  The Furball Lake has a better field layout than the WWI arena.  The three country fields are equal distant and can access the same battle space simultaneously.  That helps add a little variety as the furball ebbs and flows between the three spokes of the layout instead of just back and forth between 2 fields.

But even the lake is only marginally popular compared to the MA.  It gets old quick.  Eventually players yearn to get back to MA where simulated war is waging.


Regards,
Wab


  
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 05:18:31 PM by AKWabbit »
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17932
      • Fugi's Aces Help
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2011, 06:56:38 PM »
There were far more fights around the strats with the old system than there are with the new system.  The new central starts have eliminated all those ground vs ground, air vs ground and air vs air fights that happened as people tried to take strats down or protect them.

And what's wrong with making strats more valuable?  I'd think, in fact I know, it would start more fights.

The point is that if you attack the strats in the proper order now they do have an effect. They are a bit more trouble to do it this way, so now you get everyone wanting it to be easier, and more devastating. So ya I think these requests look like "Lets make it easier to stop the enemy" never mind trying to fight them, lets take away their fuel and ord.

The reason you don't see attacks to the starts is because they don't know "how" to do it (no body learns how to play the game these days) and the second reason is because its too hard. It takes skill to get the right places bombed, and organized well enough to get there and do the job. 

There are a lot of things that were done in the "war" that people are not going to do here. Flying defensive cap over a base for an hour only to land because your shift is over. Or pork troops along a front. Smart yes, but how often do you see it happen? Not very, why because it's boring. This is a game, and most people here are here to have fun.

We already have horde rolling bases, lets make it so that the bases they haven't rolled no longer let you up to defend because a couple guys ran a B29 group over the fuel depot and flattened it. Yup, makes sense to me. I'd rather see them FIGHT to destroy the city, then FIGHT to destroy the factory, then FIGHT to pork the fields. If they want to make it easier, why not just hand out nukes?

Offline kvuo75

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3003
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2011, 10:48:21 PM »
fullmetalbullet, considering you still don't understand the strat system as it currently works, 

do you not realize your earlier idea about <5% refinery = 25% fuel works both / 3 ways? what if i hit your refinery first? what if everyone hits each others refineries? all 3 countries limited to 25% fuel. good thinking there. sounds like a good ole time!

kvuo75

Kill the manned ack.

Offline fullmetalbullet

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 834
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2011, 10:55:39 PM »
fullmetalbullet, considering you still don't understand the strat system as it currently works,  

do you not realize your earlier idea about <5% refinery = 25% fuel works both / 3 ways? what if i hit your refinery first? what if everyone hits each others refineries? all 3 countries limited to 25% fuel. good thinking there. sounds like a good ole time!



well if thats the case then ill deal with it. you guys dont seem to get it. the is a war game. more over its a stretegic war game. but you guys dont wanna play that way, im not saying you in general but those who only wanna dogfight. thats not what this games only about. if it was only about that then there wouldnt be a win the war, and there wouldnt be strat targets. i know what the strat system is but its to uneffective to the country if you take them down. that 5% and below equaling 25% fuel for the whole country is well nearly realistic. take it down to 0% and only a few people could up from a field with 25% fuel. and i know its harsh, but its a war game not a regular air combat game. and to be honest you guys should start seeing that yourselfs. because those who only play for dogfighting are only seeing one piece of the AH pie that is actually there.

and another thing is if you can just fly like 10 20 C-47 supply runs to the strats well it makes no sence to hit them because there back up in 30 mins. defanetly not worth a large scale effort to hit them.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 10:57:20 PM by fullmetalbullet »
"Cry Havoc, And Let Slip The Dogs Of War" Julius Caesar


Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2011, 12:30:14 AM »
The point is that if you attack the strats in the proper order now they do have an effect. They are a bit more trouble to do it this way, so now you get everyone wanting it to be easier, and more devastating. So ya I think these requests look like "Lets make it easier to stop the enemy" never mind trying to fight them, lets take away their fuel and ord.

I might be wrong but I don't think anyone suggested changing the fundamental way the strats work; only making them more valuable ( somewhat harsher reality when they are down) and not being able to resupply them.  If you're going to let the enemy take down your strats and the corrsponding targets at your airfield then yes, you get what you get.  You seem to be all about fighting; fight to defend your ability to wage war.

The reason you don't see attacks to the starts is because they don't know "how" to do it (no body learns how to play the game these days) and the second reason is because its too hard. It takes skill to get the right places bombed, and organized well enough to get there and do the job.

What a load of BS.  The reason no one hits strats anymore is that no one wants to fly 15 sectors into a counties backfield only to have them back up before they leave enemy territory.  I used to play around the strats all the time, both offensively and defensively.  I've only seen the strat complexes twice since they changed.  Why?  BOOORING.  

There are a lot of things that were done in the "war" that people are not going to do here. Flying defensive cap over a base for an hour only to land because your shift is over. Or pork troops along a front. Smart yes, but how often do you see it happen? Not very, why because it's boring. This is a game, and most people here are here to have fun.

And what exactly does this have to do with the topic of this post?

We already have horde rolling bases, lets make it so that the bases they haven't rolled no longer let you up to defend because a couple guys ran a B29 group over the fuel depot and flattened it. Yup, makes sense to me. I'd rather see them FIGHT to destroy the city, then FIGHT to destroy the factory, then FIGHT to pork the fields. If they want to make it easier, why not just hand out nukes?

And again, no ones suggested anything different; only making it more valuable to do so.  Again, if you don't want to fight to defend it then you get what you get.  It sounds more and more to me like you're the one trying to avoid a fight.  Yep, leave those strats deep in the backfield next to some friendly bases so they can be quickly resupplied, then we won't have to fight to defend them.  If they do go down we'll just wait for the enemy to leave then go resupply them.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 12:32:17 AM by BaldEagl »
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2011, 01:31:31 AM »
Goal-Oriented-Combat
Well yeah Wabb.. That's what I'm saying. Not free for all combat.. Not "low quality combat" - who wants that?  :lol
Quote
but it is devoid of a high level goal, of context, of purpose, of meaning.
You could have that but it requires coordination between players. It means the players have to agree amongst themselves to set the goal posts in a certain spot and agree that you can't just offside or go out of bounds, etc.  That just doesn't work on its own, not in any game with MMO level population. 
That said, what happens in AH IMO is that there's enough developer-provided material already, for players to have plenty of goal oriented combat.  If you add too many more "rules" forcing "goal orientation" you start to take away players' freedom to do as they please and that hurts fun real quick.

EG right now in AH nothing stops you from doing fighter sweeps.  There's already more than enough for a whole country to organize into a lean mean fighting machine, while still not at all diminishing furballing fun.  But it takes self policing (e.g. not attacking a base with 30 players when only 5 players are going to be defending) and again, that just doesn't quite happen.


The reason you don't see attacks to the starts is because they don't know "how" to do it (no body learns how to play the game these days) and the second reason is because its too hard. It takes skill to get the right places bombed, and organized well enough to get there and do the job. 
I don't think so.  Take the same numbers and organization that we have now focused on real estate and put em to work porking Capital and strats.  It'd mean learning something new and most likely a string of failures before it started to become the kind of acquired knowledge that straight base-taking has come to be today, but eventually you'd have a similar ease to organizing it.  There would be set jobs just like there's set jobs for the essential elements of base taking today - a goon, goon escort, air superiority, deacking, town razing, hangar killing, etc.  Of course a Capital destroying mission and a strat destroying mission would be different animals from a bas taking mission, but I don't see why, as the strat system and maps are right now, it couldn't become as well oiled routine as base taking.

The only serious obstacle to this IMO is that it depends much more on A2A dogfighting.  The very far end of the strategy/tactics spectrum IOW furballer skills, not macro level mission planning skills.  And of course players have a harder time (note I'm not saying it really is so much more difficult that it's anywhere near unfeasible) learning that. 

Quote
There are a lot of things that were done in the "war" that people are not going to do here. Flying defensive cap over a base for an hour only to land because your shift is over. Or pork troops along a front. Smart yes, but how often do you see it happen? Not very, why because it's boring. This is a game, and most people here are here to have fun.
But if everyone on both sides were doing it, I reckon there would be more combat action.  Really.  The fields aren't that far from each other.



I might be wrong but I don't think anyone suggested changing the fundamental way the strats work; only making them more valuable ( somewhat harsher reality when they are down) and not being able to resupply them. 
 The reason no one hits strats anymore is that no one wants to fly 15 sectors into a counties backfield only to have them back up before they leave enemy territory.  I used to play around the strats all the time, both offensively and defensively.  I've only seen the strat complexes twice since they changed.  Why?  BOOORING.

And again, no ones suggested anything different; only making it more valuable to do so. 
 leave those strats deep in the backfield next to some friendly bases so they can be quickly resupplied, then we won't have to fight to defend them.  If they do go down we'll just wait for the enemy to leave then go resupply them.
Maybe make only the forward strat locations resuppliable?  And/or make the strats larger so that they take a little more explosives/strafing to destroy (IIRC one or two bomber formations already have enough to raze a strat twice over.. ?)  but a significantly more resupplying to repair?   The former so that off-hours porkers can't so easily disable a whole country's resources so easily (and maybe strats could have wider proximity flashing range), the latter obviously so strat attackers efforts aren't so vain.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 01:38:53 AM by moot »
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
Re: Proposal for new strat system.
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2011, 08:17:01 AM »
and what im asking for is to take the ability to resupply strats via C-47 out. all that work and 30 mins their back up because you got supply runners. you take that out and i bet more people would up to stop bombing raids and more people would run bombing raids everyday.

 and yes AH is a war game. you have the 3 major areas for a war game. land, sea, and air. so it is a war game.

I see, you want to play make believe I can smash your refineries to a point that the enemy has no fuel, but you don't want make believe I can resupply and rebuild my refineries.

They name streets after you ... "One Way".

You keep saying this is war ... it's not war ...

War is not supposed to be fun, a game is. Hence to try say one is the other, is an insult to both.


HiTech

Therefore we are a kinetic military simulator.

HiTech

Taking strats out should not be as easy and simple as you want it to be. You want strats out and down for a long time ? Take out the City first then take out the strat and then leave an attack group loitering around to take out any and all C-47s being flown in for re-supply and destroy any trains or convoys en-route to the City.

I'm guessing that would be too hard to do unless you got a lot of people to sign up for highly organized raid ... ummmm ... kinda like real war ?

Bottom line is, yes you can make an impact, but HT isn't going to let you or anyone take the "fun" out of the game, and sitting around in the tower for 3 hours waiting for fuel to be re-supplied isn't going to help the "fun" factor. That is why he allows resupply by C-47. If the country effected doesn't want to resupply, that is their choice and they can sit around for 3 hours waiting for a strat to resupply, but if they want to take the initiative and counter the effects it is there ... it's up to them to bring their "fun" back.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."