109 f-4 vs g-6

[321BAR]

Mate, it is also question of production efficiency and equipment. G series of 109s were cheaper and faster to build, could be equipped with more modern radios and navigational aids, for example, and had in-built capability of much much more additional eqiupment for different missions.

P-51D was slower and poorer turner than P-51B - but it was still built and pushed to use, as it could perform its tasks better. Same with 109F vs. 109G. G was more usable and better fighter, even if it was worse _dogfighter_.

Cheers!

the 51D is much faster at low alts as the 51B was geared for higher altitudes. both 51s have advantages and disadvantages to be used against the enemy.

[bozon]

That. The difference between the g-2s and the g-6s handling isnt as much tho, it mostly depends on the pilot, not the plane. The g-2 is about 7mph faster (with and without wep too) what is noticable. But still, the (turn rate)*(speed and climb) remained on the same level compared to the F.

The G2 is better than the F in almost every way under 10,000 ft. The F may have a slight advantage in instantaneous turn. The extra horses under the hood do make a difference, even if not a huge one.

[Krusty]

I have finished off many a plane, or been forced to start then finish off new planes with the 2x 13mm guns in later model 109s. They are not for show. They are a noticable step up. I've taken out 1 or 2 planes with 13mm alone in G14s or K4s I've landed kill streaks of 8-10 in a 109G6 (no gondolas) with single hotpads halfway through. It's quite capable.

In a G-2 or F-4 you have to put more rounds into target. Say the 20mm that you land does 90% of the required damage to break something, then that extra few 7mm rounds does 8% more, well the target keeps on flying.

In a G-6 and later, those 13mms round for round equal about 3 7mm rounds. Now all of a sudden instead of doing 98% damage and having the con keep fighting, you've done 120% or so and he's dead. You can move on to the next target.

At least, that's how it feels from my perspective.

[Ardy123]

in G14s or K4s I've landed kill streaks of 8-10 in a 109G6 (no gondolas) with single hotpads halfway through. It's quite capable.

Any film of that? 8-10 kills in one flight?  (My max was 9, and I didn't make it back to base)

[moot]

1 hotpad means 4 kills per stint if Im reading it right.

[Debrody]

My best in the g-6 was 13 with one rearm, 8 without rearm  (no, i wasnt vulching).   8-10, you speakin about it like an usual thing   WTF you must be damn good then  <S>

[Krusty]

A couple of older films maybe, but film viewer doesn't play older stuff so well anymore. I'd have to go digging, but have 100s of film files in a sub directory.

[Krusty]

1 hotpad means 4 kills per stint if Im reading it right.

Quite so. That's 50 20mm rounds per kill, or in some cases where you use too much 20mm you kill the last 1 or 2 with the 13mms only.

[ScottyK]

i prefer the 109F over G6, the G6 has more hitting power with the MG's as stated above.  i am no means a "top stick" in a 109 (F or G6) but have held my own against those who are and fly K4's.

[save]

i prefer the 109g6 due to its better lethality, to me its a significant difference difference shooting @400 yards or less  , and due to the fact it does'nt give you pw's as often as i get in the G2/F4, it has much better pilot protection.

[Ardy123]

Quite so. That's 50 20mm rounds per kill, or in some cases where you use too much 20mm you kill the last 1 or 2 with the 13mms only.

Oh, thats more believable... I've only gotten 9 kills in one flight, once. That was in a K4 and that was about 11 slugs per kill.

[Debrody]

For Krusty, not to hijack the other 109 thread:
Your head is hard like a rock. The g-6 is faster and climbs better than the f-4?
Look at this:

Climb, military power. The g has advantage under 13k, while the f overtakes. Almost equal, isnt it?


Climb, wep. Pretty much the same story.


Speed, military power. The g-6 is only 5 mph faster on the deck, even tho it increases to 15mph at 6k. The F is faster between 17 and 23k. Little advantage on the g-6


Speed, emergency power: g-6 is average 5mph faster up to 13k, and over 22k. Between theese alts, the F is faster by 5mph. Pretty much equal, isnt it?

109Fs turn radius is about 410-425 feet, not sure. G-6s turn radius is around 480 feet.
F-4 can turn around in 17.4 seconds on the deck, the g-6s best time i could reach was 18.1.
Those MGs instantly kill the enemy when you point them on it, right? This advantage goes for the g-6, its valid in a many vs many situation, but still, til you cant hit with the 20mm, the enemy wont crash.
I dont know why you think the g-6 is a better dogfighter. Have you ever tryed to turn it against a spitfire? And the F? Try it then tell me which one is the better dogfighter.

GL
 

Edit: my fav ride is the g-6. But if you dont belive me, come, duel me, you will be in the g-6, me in the f-4. Im a noob, but im almost sure i will get you. Couse the g-6 isnt über.

[Krusty]

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109f4&p2=109g2&p3=109g6

I wouldn't compare milpower settings much. Both planes have 10 mins of WEP and if engaged wouldn't be doing it on continuous power.

Further, Bf109F4 turn radius is 591 feet sans flaps. With flaps G6 does 481 with full flaps. Why do I compare flaps to no flaps? Just one indicator that shows the G6 isn't quite the dump truck. The F4 even without flaps is fairly tight turning. Spit9 minimum radius is 632 feet whilst G6 minimum is 648 (both sans flaps). So the 109G6 is comparable to a spit9 in turn radius.


As you yourself have shown, the G6 is faster and climbs better. Marginally faster and marginally better, but "better" nonetheless, and does so with more horsepower and more firepower. It's no slouch in the manuverability department either. It's not as if it turns like a P-51 for these advantages it holds over the F-4.

So, several benefits, almost no detriment, just as capable as a 109F or 109G2, and you maintain that it's the worst of the 109s?

In fact it's really one of the nicer ones. Your main contention is that it doesn't turn with spits as nicely. Again see my previous comment "Well sure... If turn radius is your ONLY criteria for a dogfighter!"

P.S. You said worst of all 109s, not "worst compared to 109F" not "worst compared to 109G2 and F4" -- you said it was the worst. That's like saying a spit9 is the worst of the spits. It's a misleading and not entirely true statement.

[Ardy123]

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109f4&p2=109g2&p3=109g6

I wouldn't compare milpower settings much. Both planes have 10 mins of WEP and if engaged wouldn't be doing it on continuous power.

Further, Bf109F4 turn radius is 591 feet sans flaps. With flaps G6 does 481 with full flaps. Why do I compare flaps to no flaps? Just one indicator that shows the G6 isn't quite the dump truck. The F4 even without flaps is fairly tight turning. Spit9 minimum radius is 632 feet whilst G6 minimum is 648 (both sans flaps). So the 109G6 is comparable to a spit9 in turn radius.


As you yourself have shown, the G6 is faster and climbs better. Marginally faster and marginally better, but "better" nonetheless, and does so with more horsepower and more firepower. It's no slouch in the manuverability department either. It's not as if it turns like a P-51 for these advantages it holds over the F-4.

So, several benefits, almost no detriment, just as capable as a 109F or 109G2, and you maintain that it's the worst of the 109s?

In fact it's really one of the nicer ones. Your main contention is that it doesn't turn with spits as nicely. Again see my previous comment "Well sure... If turn radius is your ONLY criteria for a dogfighter!"

P.S. You said worst of all 109s, not "worst compared to 109F" not "worst compared to 109G2 and F4" -- you said it was the worst. That's like saying a spit9 is the worst of the spits. It's a misleading and not entirely true statement.

Krusty,
It doesn't show in the graphs but in my experience, once the g6 is slow,  it doesn't turn up as fast as say the g2 or the g14. This has a noticeable impact when engaged in a tight rolling scissors fight (a fight that is frequently engaged in when fighting with a 109).

[M0nkey_Man]

K-4