FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)

[drgondog]

I missed all the aerogeek fun in this thread!  
1) Stoney talked about tip stalls & why stalled aircraft well roll on to their backs.  Another major factor to consider for power-on stalls is asymmetric wing stalls from the propeller slipstream.  On a clockwise rotating prop the left wing experiences an up-wash while the right wing experiences a down-wash.  This results in the left wing experiencing a greater induced aoa while the right wing has a lower induced aoa which means that all things being equal the left wing will stall first.  The asymmetric loss of lift results in a rolling moment to the greater stalled wing.  This is modeled in AH & could be seen in the pics Pyro had posted before but now removed that Stoney refers to.

This phoenomena for the F4U (left wing - inboard) was validated and reported in wind tunnel models in stall zone - one could expect even worse in asymmetrical flight. By contrast the pressure distribution for the P-63 and P-51 were both nicely symmetrical right up to the break

2) As to aeroelastic affects I’d venture to guess that they would be more impactful to the FM from a stability point of view – i.e., aileron reversals, wing divergence, tail boom bending and the changes to control & stability with those sorts of things.  All sorts of fun in figuring out the basis to model the aeroelasticity though (don’t they teach whole classes on the topic?).  I can just see the whine-o-meter shoot through the roof.   Lord have mercy!

Classes taught now - but absent powerful structural modelling with very nice representation of airframe structure subjected to loads (developed and inposed by another very powerful Aero app capable of dealing with asymmetric flight conditions for both stability factors and pressure distribution), combined and integrated by folks skilled in both the science blended with their 'art'..??.. it just hurts my little pointed head..

3) I vote ddog & PJ as the grand & vice grand pooba’s of Pyro & Hitech’s sacred order of propellerheads.

Appreciate the thought but I will recede into the background as there are several guys on this thread, yourself included that didn't come into town on a wagonload of turnips..

[Slade]

Is there an up-to-date list of turn radius and\or sustained turning for the current plane set?

Do a BBs search for Spatula's application.  That info is in the app.

Can anyone help me find Spatula's application or how to determine a plane's turn radius?

Gonzo's site is really good on this too but I'd like to extract something more current (and include the newer planes).


Thanks! 

[PJ_Godzilla]

Can anyone help me find Spatula's application or how to determine a plane's turn radius?

Gonzo's site is really good on this too but I'd like to extract something more current (and include the newer planes).


Thanks! 

THere's a simple formula: 2WL/(rho Cl sin(theta) = R, where theta is max bank, as determined by the power loading.
Otherwise HOLY NECRO BUMP BATMAN!!!!

[Angus]

Turn radius is always rather tricky.
Goes linear with climb rate as a thumb rule

[save]

Angus, with continious turn rate, if reverse modelled for climbrate is done, the A8 will never ever leave the ground 

[save]

I found a russian site about the fw190a8 tactics on the eastern front , I was most surprised that according to these russian resources Fw190a8 could outrun / give too slow catchup to prevent guns use.

http://www.airpages.ru/eng/lw/fw190a7.shtml

If you compare that to what Fw190a8 represents in AH , its slower / much slower at the deck, but  RL speed gave  the 190a8 survivability in many cases.

[save]

Found a link of fw190 vs mosquito

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Military-History-669/World-War-2-Aircraft.htm

It does not look like the fights mossie vs fw190a8 we have in AH.
In AH you get outfought at all flight parameters except roll.

[pervert]

A FW190-D can equal a continuous turn on the deck with a Spitfire! that is a fact  

[Karnak]

Found a link of fw190 vs mosquito

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Military-History-669/World-War-2-Aircraft.htm

It does not look like the fights mossie vs fw190a8 we have in AH.
In AH you get outfought at all flight parameters except roll.

I like the massive documentation that is used to support their position.  None of their links support that conclusion, or even refer to such a comparison.  The one daylight Fw190 vs Mosquito VI fight I am aware of went in favor of the 190s, but the Mosquitos took some with them.

A FW190-D can equal a continuous turn on the deck with a Spitfire! that is a fact  

With the convincing data you have supplied how can anybody ever disagree....



Guys, unsupported claims are literally worthless.

[Messiah]

A FW190-D can equal a continuous turn on the deck with a Spitfire! that is a fact  

It's a conspiracy I tell you, a conspiracy!

[pervert]

Actually its true I can do it game think about it I will supply a film  

What you forget is the size and speed of turn lets say the situation is a spit8 800 of a FW190D's 6 more or less co -E alt, if you roll/bank the FW at an angle on its side and let it turn on trim alone using roll to adjust at high speed the spitfire will not be able to catch you in the turn, the more he tightens his turn the more E he will bleed the same will happen if he trys to cut across the circle he will rejoin in a worse position. The only way a plane could catch you in this situation is if it was a faster plane than yours and turns the same way, since the FW190D is near the top of the speed charts that won't happen often.

This bank is technically still a sustained turn and the end result is still a circle, its just a much wider and faster one.

[Scherf]

The one daylight Fw190 vs Mosquito VI fight I am aware of went in favor of the 190s, but the Mosquitos took some with them.

There were a fair number of daylight Mossie-190 engagements off Norway, honours about even though it was ah, not recommended as standard procedure for Coastal Command Mosquitos to hang about and dogfight with JG 5. Were assorted inconclusive run-ins, Max Aitken himself gave a brace of 190s the slip, at least one other I can think of over the channel where the Mossie escaped.

Only really one-sided encounter was over Biscay - three Mossies lost for a single 190 damaged. The surviving Mossie pilot put a lot of the blame on the sortie leader, who failed to take any action after the 190s had been spotted.

Will see if I can do a rough tally for the Norway stuff.

[Scherf]

In terms of the actions off Norway, the Mossies lost 6 confirmed to 190s while destroying 4 confirmed in return.

As noted, there were also actions over Biscay, also daylight engagements with 109s in Norway.

Also as noted, there were further inconclusive combats - for example in June 1943 a Norwegian crew of 333 Squadron damaged a Luftwaffe flying boat then fought with two 190s for ten minutes. Quite like AH stuff - each time the Mossie got onto the tail of one of the 190s, it had to evade the other. Eventually broke off and headed home.

[Karnak]

Actually its true I can do it game think about it I will supply a film  

What you forget is the size and speed of turn lets say the situation is a spit8 800 of a FW190D's 6 more or less co -E alt, if you roll/bank the FW at an angle on its side and let it turn on trim alone using roll to adjust at high speed the spitfire will not be able to catch you in the turn, the more he tightens his turn the more E he will bleed the same will happen if he trys to cut across the circle he will rejoin in a worse position. The only way a plane could catch you in this situation is if it was a faster plane than yours and turns the same way, since the FW190D is near the top of the speed charts that won't happen often.

This bank is technically still a sustained turn and the end result is still a circle, its just a much wider and faster one.

That makes no sense.  The Fw190D-9 may as well just not turn at all there and it will out run said Spitfire Mk VIII.  That is certainly not a description of a Spitfire being out turned by an Fw190.

Scherf,

Sounds about right.  The Mosquito VI was not ideal for dogfighting, but it wasn't helpless either. In the last fight you mentioned, the Mossies were unable to score on the Fw190s due to a 190 getting on their tail when they were in position to fire on the other 190, yet given that no Mossies were lost there, they were able to get the 190 off of their six as well.

[Scherf]

Scherf,

Sounds about right.  The Mosquito VI was not ideal for dogfighting, but it wasn't helpless either. In the last fight you mentioned, the Mossies were unable to score on the Fw190s due to a 190 getting on their tail when they were in position to fire on the other 190, yet given that no Mossies were lost there, they were able to get the 190 off of their six as well.

Yup, just so, although it was a single Mossie vs two 190s. PM me your email addy and I'll send you the Combat Report from the National Archives. Goes for other forumites as wel.