Author Topic: As a 190 driver... (Read 3053 times)

jmccaul · « **Reply #45 on:** February 20, 2000, 02:47:00 PM »

From the figures i had (from the web, i'll try and dig them up) the spit 8 was a bit quicker and had a better climb (these could of course be wrong?).
As to 190A4 v Spit 9, i would like to see the HF and LF figures in direct comparison to the 190 figures, unfortunatly unless tests were conducted under similar conditions i am not sure of the value of just comparing figures from different sources. I would though like to see their realtive powerloading, wingloading etc. even with figure comparisons when planes are fairly evenly matched it comes down to which qualities you hold dear.

As to combat records showing which plane is better i see the F6F is many times better than the Me262, who'd of thought that

danish · « **Reply #46 on:** February 20, 2000, 03:54:00 PM »

RAM its ISBN 0-87021-063-7

fd-ski I wont let my blod boil on this discussion once more.Just want to point out the inconsistencies the numbers give again and again..
A flight sim has to have some numbers to put in and so be it, lets just hope they choose the numbers *and* evaluate the result.

danish

RAM · « **Reply #47 on:** February 20, 2000, 04:09:00 PM »

Juzz: not a valid argument...the F4U was a great plane but its 11:1 ratio was the result of fighting against a vastly inferior enemy. From 1943 onwards the techical difference was abysmal and when it was reduced later (Ki-84,Ki-100,N1K2...) was too late because there were not enough experienced pilots to fight against...
Try this...model the A6M5,create a "newbies arena", then go in in your F4U1-D and lets see how many victories you win.
The Fw190A was faced against good planes and competent pilots. The F4U1 not. Also the Hellcat got a tremendous win rate, and wasn't more than a good plane, no more than that.
As you see:not a valid argument.

jmccaul · « **Reply #48 on:** February 20, 2000, 05:53:00 PM »

Your not seriously suggesting a combat record of the 190 shows it as a superior plane! There are just too many variables beside performance. Apart from anything all planes on all sides seem to have a better K

than 1 which is a bit dubious.

The p51, same theatre as the Me 262 but with a superior K

ratio the P51 is therefore a better plane?

juzz · « **Reply #49 on:** February 21, 2000, 12:10:00 AM »

You do know the Jagdwaffe had every advantage(except numbers) over the RAF fighters during that time period(june-dec 41)? They could pick and choose their fights, and had enough time to engage from an altitude advantage. They had better planes, more experienced pilots and superior tactics.

The Spitfire IX wasn't in service during that time period. So to say the Fw190A is better than it from numbers you must be using SIFTER's AH stats - which are in no way valid for comparing real plane quality. As you yourself point out, the AH arena isn't anything like the air combat environment that existed in WW2, so these numbers are void.

If you examine the performance numbers - it is clear that neither the Fw190A or Spitfire IX is decisively superior to the other. Unless you consider a 5-10mph difference as being "superior".

funked · « **Reply #50 on:** February 21, 2000, 02:17:00 AM »

Brown's book is great. He seems to have typoed some numbers. But the flying accounts are awesome!

Verm: Actually the derated engine and the spark plugs are two separate issues that existed on that particular plane.

fd ski · « **Reply #51 on:** February 21, 2000, 06:51:00 AM »

why does everyone think that when Mr. IX was deployed it overnight become the most used fighter in RAF ?

I have accounts of PAF squadrons flying SPIT VB in 1944 !!!
Hell, partols over the channel were flown by 303 in HURRICANE Ia in 1942 !!!

LW on western front had newest up to date fighters due to the qualitive race with Brits and Amis - but on eastern front where they had to use everything they had - 109E7 could be found in 42 no problem.....

See the point ?

Danish - examples please ?

-------------------------------------------
I am not saying that SPitfire 9 should outfly 190 in every department. They were pretty well matched planes - win or lose depended on pilot more then anything else.

In 1 on 1 case - spitfire 9 is a clear winner.

Many vs Many - good team in 190s will clear the skies - just ask JG14 how to do it.

If any of you think that when you are flying 190 you will be able to hit "s" button for "save me cause i'm so special and i fly LW" and be catapulted 10k higher - think again.

LW did well in the war thanks to good pilot training and being able to pick its battles. If you fly in the bee's nest - expect to be biten in the bellybutton

------------------

Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org

SIFTER · « **Reply #52 on:** February 21, 2000, 11:35:00 AM »

RAM,
The books quoted are Aircam/Airwar 6
Luftwaffe Fighter Units Europe, 1939-41
By Jerry Scutts isbn 0-89402-019-6

Duels in the Sky by Captain Eric M. Brown, RN
isbn 0-87021-063-7

The JG26 War Diary 1939-1942 by Donald Caldwell isbn 1-898697-52-3

Fdski,
Numbers are neccesary but pilots fly the planes. They fly them by feel. Eric Brown must be considered (imo) THE MAN when comparing these planes. He was a test pilot that tested the planes and then gave the numbers to the engineers. The test pilots use scienctific type tests and observations to confirm the engineers theoretical data. Five to ten mph is hard to distinquish while moving in the air. If the plane is out of trim that speed is easily gone. The Spit required more trimming in flight when changing from level flight. Not to mention the engine controls. The FW 190 required very little trimming during changes in flight aspect. And the 190 had a "brainbox" to control the engine and pitch to decrease the pilot workload so he got the max out of his plane more easily and could concentrate on the fight. We dont deal with these problems in the current sims.And I'm not sure I want too

Eric Brown flew both planes alot. He also fought the 190 in his spit for real. He sees the two planes as equals. He stated "It is not easy to establish a winner between these two, and indeed I have vacillated (dont we all

) so much on the choice that I feel compelled to give them equal rank, though that has meant swallowing my national pride. If the spitfire had had the german fighter's rate of roll, I could have declared it a clear winner and ease my conscience."...now thats an honest man. Could you imagine the crap he took from his fellow countrymen for his decision? On page 206 of the book he gives his design feature list in order of importance and compiles a merit list. IMO the best part of the book.There are way too many variables in any given fight to decide the winner in advance. Anybody who watches the UFC's can tell you that.And the RAMS how the hell did they win the superbowl. There the RAMS for God sake! My opinion is that I wouldn't feel outgunned (jab intended lol

) while flying either plane. My fingers hurt from all this two fingered typing. Radio me in AH and I'll wing for you to learn how other people do things. I'll even fly the Spit. Now that's an honest man.

SIFTER · « **Reply #53 on:** February 21, 2000, 11:43:00 AM »

P.S. Dont tell UDIE if I fly the Spit with you. He gives me crap everytime I get in one

Sifter
"High Deflection, Lead Injection"
When flying the spit: "Im defecting for dweeb injection

"
The 902nd Immortal Jaguars

danish · « **Reply #54 on:** February 21, 2000, 01:49:00 PM »

Fd-ski:

Exampel:
WB Spit IVX

danish

Udie · « **Reply #55 on:** February 21, 2000, 02:53:00 PM »

Sifter,

I was afraid you would start flying that plane again. This time you must be punished.

For the next week you are to fly only the 190a8 w/ 2x20mm and 2x30mm. As well as 100%fuel and external tanks. Only you are not to use the fuel in the external tank. You must also stay under 10,000 ft. AND you must only engage cons that are above you

For the week after that you are allowed to use the fuel in your tank, but under no circumstances are you to drop the tank..

Oh yeah, and give me 50 pushups too

------------------
Udie
Say "you-die", Say "ooodee", SAY YOUR PRAYERS!!!!
902nd Immortal Jaguars

Pongo · « **Reply #56 on:** February 21, 2000, 02:58:00 PM »

This is the thead that never ends..
Yes it goes on and on my friends...
Somebody started typeing it not knowing what it was...
And we'll continue reading it forever just because....

This is the Thread that never ends....
Yes it goes on and on my friends...
""
""
Regards to the imortal lambchop...

------------------
Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

fd ski · « **Reply #57 on:** February 21, 2000, 04:18:00 PM »

Danish - are you saying XIV is overmodeled ?

As far as i'm conserned - its nuts have been cut cause otherwise nothing else would be flown...

------------------

Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org

danish · « **Reply #58 on:** February 21, 2000, 04:32:00 PM »

fd-ski:
Im afraid your jumping the gun here.The WB XIV is undermodelled for sure.Just wanted to give an exampel I knew we could agree on ;=)

danish

SIFTER · « **Reply #59 on:** February 21, 2000, 05:21:00 PM »

"DOH", Who squealed? Now I'm doomed to E-less flying for quite awhile. At least he's not making fly the Hawg!

Author Topic: As a 190 driver... (Read 3053 times)

funked