Author Topic: P-43 Lancer  (Read 3470 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2011, 12:49:36 PM »
The AVG did not use the P-43, the only time the Flying Tigers flew the Lancer was during ferry missions from the US to China.  A number of P-43s were intended for the AVG to equip the 3rd AVG but that fell through.  The P-43s intended for the 3rd AVG instead went to the Nationalist Chinese air force, in addition to the Lend-Lease Lancers the Chinese received.

The RAAF only received 8 P-43s that were converted to the photo recce role and by 1943, only 6 remained and were returned back to the USAAF.

Even with the primary user (China), the Lancer didn't play a significant role in the Chinese air war.

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Offline Seadog36

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2011, 03:54:36 PM »
The AVG did not use the P-43, the only time the Flying Tigers flew the Lancer was during ferry missions from the US to China.  A number of P-43s were intended for the AVG to equip the 3rd AVG but that fell through. 
ack-ack

You are wrong Ack-Ack, P-43s are specifically cited in combat action with US pilots Lt. Phillip B. O'Connell, Lt. Phillip B. O'Connell, Major Frank Schiel and Capt. Jeffrey O. Wellborn of the AVG then later transitioning into the USAAF 23rd Figter Group 74th,75th and 76th Fighter Squadrons :

http://www.warbirdforum.com/dunnp434.htm

I was surprised you hadn't made some unfounded and inaccurate conjecture in this thread yet. Read the article first before you inject more historical inaccuracies.

Personally I think they are beautiful broad shouldered birds Vinkman~ probably a little less maneuverable than an f4f, 53mph faster, 300ft/min better climb rate, and higher service ceiling.

Offline Krusty

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2011, 04:17:10 PM »
That's an interesting history read there Seadog, but as it relates to the validity/importance of the P-43, I think the following quote tells it all:

Quote
VII. ASSESSMENT

The P-43 did not play a major role in the air war in China. This was primarily due to the small numbers in which it was committed to combat. This study could not find an occasion when the C.A.F. employed more than twelve, nor the 14th Air Force more than four, P-43s on a single mission. A typical mission for the 14th Air Force involved only one or two P-43s. With the C.A.F., missions generally ranged from two to ten P-43s but the total number of missions flown was very small.

Offline Seadog36

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2011, 05:00:15 PM »
That's an interesting history read there Seadog, but as it relates to the validity/importance of the P-43, I think the following quote tells it all:


I agree Krusty, the Lancer was not a major player. My argument is that AHII is rife with many minor aircraft and variants that saw minimal combat: for example P47M (130),F4Uc(200),TA-152(42),SpitXVI(188)Brewster(300). In lew of that, I think it would make a good addition for EW and scenarios especially something that is not an over utilized uber ride.

Having said that I would rather see the P-47D 20-23 block represented, being the 2nd most produced variant of 13,000 after the D-30. Even the meek Ki-43 should make the grade based on it's prevalence and relevance ~ mercifully there is a dedicated thread for it now :D
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 05:03:03 PM by Seadog36 »

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2011, 05:49:26 PM »
You are wrong Ack-Ack, P-43s are specifically cited in combat action with US pilots Lt. Phillip B. O'Connell, Lt. Phillip B. O'Connell, Major Frank Schiel and Capt. Jeffrey O. Wellborn of the AVG then later transitioning into the USAAF 23rd Figter Group 74th,75th and 76th Fighter Squadrons :

http://www.warbirdforum.com/dunnp434.htm

Again, the American Volunteer Group did not fly the P-43 other than ferry missions. The action described in the site you linked, the squadron that the pilots belonged to was the 75th FS, part of the 23rd Fighter Group attached to the China Air Task Force, which later became the 14th AF.  The CATF was not the AVG, though it did intergrate the AVG squadrons when the USAAF took charge with the creation of the CATF.

So in other words, this engagement took place after the AVG was disbanded and intergrated into the USAAF.  In fact, I believe this engagement was the first kills for the 75th FS.  If you also paid note to the article you linked to, it mentions the 23rd FG (of which the 75th FS was a part) had only 5 P-43s, with a promise of 5 more. 

Quote
I was surprised you hadn't made some unfounded and inaccurate conjecture in this thread yet. Read the article first before you inject more historical inaccuracies.

The only one flirting with historical inaccuracies in this thread has been yourself.


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Offline Seadog36

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2011, 07:12:38 PM »
Ack, You quote me with my own source~I never said they were synonymous, rather specifically that the 74th,75th and 76th were components of the AVG that later transitioned into the USAAF specifically the 23rd FG. My point being that US pilots in those FGs did use them with some success in combat. The author of the article also maintains, that the US could have benefited by utilizing additional P-43s with their superior performance to overcome the shortcomings of the P-40. The CAF regularly flew them in flights of 10 plus aircraft with P-66s and P-40s, which with the very low number employed in that arena was significant. I concur with the author in his positive below assessment.

"The data assembled in this study suggests the P-43 might have been highly successful if used more extensively. It demonstrated ability to effect interceptions when P-40s could not and to shoot down Japanese high altitude reconnaissance planes. It had good range capability and could fly both bomber escort and reconnaissance missions. Its high altitude performance made it a good complement to the P-40 on escort missions...A squadron of P-43s at Port Moresby in 1942 might have saved many American fighter pilots by giving top cover to the Allison powered fighters. There is also little doubt Chennault could have usefully employed more than the ten fighters he was granted."
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 07:20:23 PM by Seadog36 »

Offline Guppy35

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2011, 11:45:17 PM »
I agree Krusty, the Lancer was not a major player. My argument is that AHII is rife with many minor aircraft and variants that saw minimal combat: for example P47M (130),F4Uc(200),TA-152(42),SpitXVI(188)Brewster(300). In lew of that, I think it would make a good addition for EW and scenarios especially something that is not an over utilized uber ride.

Having said that I would rather see the P-47D 20-23 block represented, being the 2nd most produced variant of 13,000 after the D-30. Even the meek Ki-43 should make the grade based on it's prevalence and relevance ~ mercifully there is a dedicated thread for it now :D

Where did you get your Spit XVI combat numbers from?

I understand you are set on the Lancer.  Again if your argument is for an early war bird that fits for scenarios and is a US built bird, you are much better off with the P36/Hawk 75.  At least that one was relevant.

Understand my all time favorite bird is the Spitfire XII.  100 built and it did see plenty of combat in 43-44.  That being said, I've also always said it should be down the list as there is a good representation of Spits.  The Lancer is nothing more then a novelty, and I like it's story, but for AH it's way way down the list behind far more historically relevant birds.
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Offline B3YT

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2011, 03:12:12 AM »
psst guppy should we tell him the XVI is a Mk IX spit?
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Offline DemonFox

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2011, 08:10:25 AM »
I think the statement that tue P-43 shouldn't be added because it didn't play a crucial role doesn't fly. The Ta-152 was built in less numbers and less purpose.
BUT I will also agree that what's the point in it? How well did it turn? Could it have any real significance for a senerio considering we have no high alt recon craft used? What would it's niche be is what I'm wondering.

Offline Vinkman

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2011, 08:43:05 AM »

Personally I think they are beautiful broad shouldered birds Vinkman~ probably a little less maneuverable than an f4f, 53mph faster, 300ft/min better climb rate, and higher service ceiling.


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Offline B3YT

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2011, 09:26:14 AM »
I think the statement that tue P-43 shouldn't be added because it didn't play a crucial role doesn't fly. The Ta-152 was built in less numbers and less purpose.
BUT I will also agree that what's the point in it? How well did it turn? Could it have any real significance for a senerio considering we have no high alt recon craft used? What would it's niche be is what I'm wondering.

The 152 is a great  hi alt interceptor  with a heavy gun package.  It' is very much needed especially now the B29 is added .   
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Offline Soulyss

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2011, 10:15:38 AM »
The TA-152 was also originally added to the game as a perk plane, it was only later that the perk tag was removed.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2011, 10:20:16 AM »
I think the statement that tue P-43 shouldn't be added because it didn't play a crucial role doesn't fly. The Ta-152 was built in less numbers and less purpose.
BUT I will also agree that what's the point in it? How well did it turn? Could it have any real significance for a senerio considering we have no high alt recon craft used? What would it's niche be is what I'm wondering.
sometimes you puzzle me demonfox...is turning ability that important? you would be surprised at which aircraft should not be used for turn n burn but in ah, it happens.

i'd like to see the p-43 included...with leaking fuel tanks and no pilot armor...  :D  hey, fresh off the factory floor that's how they were, no field mods allowed...  :lol

of all the early war u.s. aircraft, the curtiss p-36 hawk has a much better case for inclusion just from the numbers that were exported for foreign service...not saying the p-43 wouldn't have a place but, when even the primary users of the aircraft relegated it to primarily non-combat duties...it may as well be a cac boomerang.
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Offline DemonFox

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2011, 10:35:04 AM »
I'm sorry if I confuse you Gyrene. I'm considered by some of my friends to have um... Multiple personalities. I can see something and like it. I'll see it the next day and HATE it.

But about the the P-43 it seems like a land based faster F4F so I was just wondering if it could turn well.

But I still have a strong bias to the PBY-5A  :aok

Offline gyrene81

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Re: P-43 Lancer
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2011, 10:39:25 AM »
I'm sorry if I confuse you Gyrene. I'm considered by some of my friends to have um... Multiple personalities. I can see something and like it. I'll see it the next day and HATE it.

But about the the P-43 it seems like a land based faster F4F so I was just wondering if it could turn well.

But I still have a strong bias to the PBY-5A  :aok
:rofl  *pats demonfox on the head* it's ok...we all have our shortcomings.
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Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett