Author Topic: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")  (Read 45408 times)

Offline ink

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #210 on: October 21, 2011, 05:57:27 PM »
I believe that all of us has the potential to become great pilots. Thing is, some don't play enough to get good enough, some are quick learners and some requires more training than usual.

When I first started in AH (4-5 years ago), I just knew the basics, like an Immelman, a loop, turn, and a scissor, having come from Jane's WW2 Fighters.
Back when H2H was still available, I met some great guys who taught me all there was to know. I remember two, Denholm, and one guy I just can't remember his name, but he was an excellent P-38 pilot. Ran his own server with MA settings.

I'm naturally a fast learner, so after a year or so, I was able to match up with these guys, even killed them every now and then.
But I also met guys who *seemed* like they just can't fly beyond the noob phase. A couple of guys and myself helped them, and although it took a while, they finally broke out of their bad habits and were great.

Noobs who fly poorly needs to be outflown in the most embarrassing way possible, just so they can learn from their mistakes. Now of course, don't rub it in their face, but don't tell them it was a "great" fight either, because it wasn't. You gotta teach them step by step, and sooner or later, they'll learn.



your first sentence is wrong...not every one is gonna be or has the potential to be great. 

when I started in tour 52 I had NO knowledge of ACM but I was getting kills my first day or two.....granted I died A heck of a lot more then killed, my first "tour" I actually got 92 kills  :rofl  within two weeks I was being called a cheater because 10 or so guys could not kill my zero :rolleyes:

I took to it very naturally, and have pushed myself as hard as I could, ever since,  my aim still sux arse but its finally improving, I read a lot through out the years and put names to what I was already doing.

so you are not a noob and should easily smack me around if I was in a D3A you in a spit......lets try it see what happens.

Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #211 on: October 21, 2011, 06:19:58 PM »

the plane is not what you should be thinking about, the pilot is who you fight, to think that they will be an "easy kill" is not good.

tell ya what ill take a 84 you take ANY ride you think will make it an "easy kill" for you,  and we will fight.....we will call it an experiment...is it the plane or the stick......what ya say? up for the challenge?

Sorry, taking a 'vacation' from flying. Just don't fly enough with school, sports, and my job to make the $15 worth it. But I know you're a very skilled opponent, even AnglEyes and I together had a hard time beating you in our 109's.

But pilot skill being an unknowable quantity, you have to go based on a plane's characteristics. And the weaknesses of a plane don't change with the pilot. AKAK may be one of the '38 aces', but even he can't keep his plane from compressing in a 500mph dive. HighTone, may be a good A6M stick, but his skill won't keep him from ripping his wings off in a high speed pullout.

Point is that since we're talking in the hypothetical, we cannot evaluate specific situations that are as of yet impossible, and that plane characterisitcs are the best way to tulips a plane's value before its added.


And INK, you in a IIC, I'm not so sure I would be as assuredly dead as you think. I'm not quite in your leauge, admitedly, but I'm far from being easy meat. When I get back on, I'll take you up on your offer as soon as I get some refresher flying.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #212 on: October 21, 2011, 06:58:03 PM »
>implying people who vote for the meteor donthave sense. :huh

If the shoe fits!   :D

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Offline ink

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #213 on: October 21, 2011, 06:59:56 PM »
Sorry, taking a 'vacation' from flying. Just don't fly enough with school, sports, and my job to make the $15 worth it. But I know you're a very skilled opponent, even AnglEyes and I together had a hard time beating you in our 109's.

But pilot skill being an unknowable quantity, you have to go based on a plane's characteristics. And the weaknesses of a plane don't change with the pilot. AKAK may be one of the '38 aces', but even he can't keep his plane from compressing in a 500mph dive. HighTone, may be a good A6M stick, but his skill won't keep him from ripping his wings off in a high speed pullout.

Point is that since we're talking in the hypothetical, we cannot evaluate specific situations that are as of yet impossible, and that plane characterisitcs are the best way to tulips a plane's value before its added.


And INK, you in a IIC, I'm not so sure I would be as assuredly dead as you think. I'm not quite in your leauge, admitedly, but I'm far from being easy meat. When I get back on, I'll take you up on your offer as soon as I get some refresher flying.

you are right...at the start of an engagement all you know is the plane generally.....I know within moments before the merge if my opponent is any good, and from there I deal with what they do, not what the plane can do.

you mention AKAK in a 38...he for sure cannot pull out of a fully compressed dive...BUT he WONT put that plane into that situation...a noob/inexperienced 38 stick will.


this is my whole point and what I try to get across if someone asks me for help.....PLANE does not matter....ACM....TIMING.....A IM....are the most important for the out come of a duel.

as far as me in 2C goes.....me in a 2C will smoke me in a KI-84.....the Hurri in a 1vs1 is much more of a deadly plane then the KI84...not so much in the MA environment, which is why I switched over to the KI....

its easy to avoid BnZ passes and just roll around on them and caress them with those 4 20's.    

I have almost 7,600 killz in the Hurri with a bit over 4000 deaths.....with around 2,500 killz in the KI.....I fight exactly the same in both planes except the KI allows me to climb a bit longer, hold my E a bit better, in the MA environment that is a huge help due to the hoards and being jumped.

anybody can BnZ around picking slow planes that don't see them.  

in a duel you must get to your opponents level to make the kill......does not matter if its same plane or different plane match ups...you still have to get within a certain distance to make the kill...BnZing may keep one safe in the MA...but if you are in a Duel that "tactic" just don't cut it. so it comes down to What the Pilot does.....not what the plane can do.

of course this is how I see things and is entirely MY opinion, but it has kept me going and allowed me to kill 5 nme cons out of 5 trying to kill me. while THEY had ALT advantage and faster planes.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #214 on: October 21, 2011, 09:18:59 PM »
AKAK may be one of the '38 aces', but even he can't keep his plane from compressing in a 500mph dive.



Yes, I most definitely can.

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #215 on: October 21, 2011, 09:30:09 PM »
Yes, I most definitely can.

ack-ack

full compression?

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #216 on: October 21, 2011, 10:03:04 PM »
full compression?

Below 10,000ft a P-38 can easily hit 500mph in a dive without fear of having the controls lock up.  This is due to the thicker air at lower altitudes where the P-38 will not enter into a compressibility state.

ack-ack
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Offline ink

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #217 on: October 21, 2011, 10:17:48 PM »
Below 10,000ft a P-38 can easily hit 500mph in a dive without fear of having the controls lock up.  This is due to the thicker air at lower altitudes where the P-38 will not enter into a compressibility state.

ack-ack

ahhh.....I take your word on that.

Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #218 on: October 21, 2011, 11:17:32 PM »
Hmmmm... I'm confused, isn't compresion caused by preasure on the control surfaces (caused by airflow over them) greater than that which the pilot and/or hydrolics can overcome, hence the relation to the word compress?

And if that is true, wouldn't thicker air just compound that situation?


Edit: just did some tests offline, and in the P-38L, I suffered complete compression at ~506mph under combat trim, at sea level. I climbed to 8K, accelerated to 340mph, and then began a steep dive, and began to suffer compression at about 1000' above sea level. Will post other test results as I finish them.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 11:27:00 PM by Tank-Ace »
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline Karnak

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #219 on: October 21, 2011, 11:41:46 PM »
Hmmmm... I'm confused, isn't compresion caused by preasure on the control surfaces (caused by airflow over them) greater than that which the pilot and/or hydrolics can overcome, hence the relation to the word compress?
Technically, compression occurs when the air flow over an airfoil develops a supersonic pressure wave that has moved onto one or more of the aircraft's control surfaces locking them in place.

People in AH often confuse heavy controls as the Spitfire Mk I/Bf109E-4 get in rolling or the Ki-84 gets in elevators with compression, but those aren't really compression, they are just heavy controls due to the speed of the airflow.
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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #220 on: October 22, 2011, 02:13:12 AM »
OK, then I guess it wasn't compression I was expierencing in the P-38, it was just REALLY heavy controll surfaces.


Anyway, point of this whole conversation is that no pilot can directly overcome an inherent weakness in their aircraft. They can sometimes get around them, and avoid having them exposed, but if they are exposed and exploited, they can't do anything to make that problem stop being a problem.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #221 on: October 22, 2011, 03:50:27 AM »


you mention AKAK in a 38...he for sure cannot pull out of a fully compressed dive...BUT he WONT put that plane into that situation...a noob/inexperienced 38 stick will.




Yes, I can pull out of a dive if I made a mistake and entered into a high speed dive at high altitudes (would have to be above 23,000ft) where I would enter into a compressibility state.  Just like the real P-38 pilot would do, chop throttle and use some elevator trim to pull out when in more thicker (denser) air. 

Compressibility happens when the air over the leading edge of the wing hit critical mach, which would cause the center of lift to move back towards the tail during high speed airflow.  At altitudes from 23,000ft and lower, the P-38 can come close to reaching compressibility but won't.  About 8 years ago I posted a small table with the various critical mach speeds at certain altitudes to show how to avoid entering into compressibility.

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #222 on: October 22, 2011, 03:52:13 AM »
OK, then I guess it wasn't compression I was expierencing in the P-38, it was just REALLY heavy controll surfaces.


No, you were experiencing compression (heavy control surfaces due to the high speed air flow) but not compressibility, which is different.  You're confusing the two.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #223 on: October 22, 2011, 03:53:49 AM »
Compressibility happens when the air over the leading edge of the wing hit critical mach, which would cause the center of lift to move back towards the tail during high speed airflow.

Great explanation. Thanks  :aok
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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #224 on: October 22, 2011, 04:17:45 AM »
Yes, I can pull out of a dive if I made a mistake and entered into a high speed dive at high altitudes (would have to be above 23,000ft) where I would enter into a compressibility state.  Just like the real P-38 pilot would do, chop throttle and use some elevator trim to pull out when in more thicker (denser) air. 

Compressibility happens when the air over the leading edge of the wing hit critical mach, which would cause the center of lift to move back towards the tail during high speed airflow.  At altitudes from 23,000ft and lower, the P-38 can come close to reaching compressibility but won't.  About 8 years ago I posted a small table with the various critical mach speeds at certain altitudes to show how to avoid entering into compressibility.

ack-ack

I aint gonna argue with ya when it comes to the 38...... :aok

that be like you arguing with me about how to tattoo....well almost.... I got about 25 years tattooing :D