P-40B

[Widewing]

My problems with the P-40s are the speeds and woeful flaps.

First, both the P-40B (probably modeled on the Tomahawk IIB), is slower than it should be. The P-40B could easily manage 350 mph. Ours only manages 313 mph at 10k, whereas factory test data shows 336 mph at 10k. Max speed is only 334 mph at 15k. Again, that's even slower than the Tomahawk IIB (340-345 mph), but lacks the external fuel mount hardware of the Tomahawk.   

The P-40E is an odd duck. P-40Es didn't have WEP, but ours does. Max speed for the P-40E varied slightly with different tests, but we should see speeds between 355 mph and 360 mph. Our P-40E, even with WEP, can't do better than 346 mph at 12k using WEP.

As to maneuverability, the P-40B is a very good turning fighter. That is, until you get slow where flaps may be needed. At that point, it wallows like a herniated whale. For both the P-40s, the flaps are useless beyond one notch. Use full flaps and you suffer a huge penalty in turn rate, that cannot overcome the modest decrease in turn radius. Likewise for the P-40E. Both have nasty departure characteristics.

You can have fun in either type, but I have been disappointed in both since their introduction to the game.

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

^^^ THIS OH MAN HTC THIS!!!^^^

Along with updating the graphics of some of the older models "super stoked btw htc and company,ty ty ty" any A/C still in the game that is a "hybrid" should be updated.

If it doesn't act how it should, then it is not what it is.  "and everyone loves more version's of any a/c"

[Krusty]

First, both the P-40B (probably modeled on the Tomahawk IIB), is slower than it should be. The P-40B could easily manage 350 mph. Ours only manages 313 mph at 10k, whereas factory test data shows 336 mph at 10k. Max speed is only 334 mph at 15k. Again, that's even slower than the Tomahawk IIB (340-345 mph), but lacks the external fuel mount hardware of the Tomahawk.  

The P-40E is an odd duck. P-40Es didn't have WEP, but ours does. Max speed for the P-40E varied slightly with different tests, but we should see speeds between 355 mph and 360 mph. Our P-40E, even with WEP, can't do better than 346 mph at 12k using WEP.

Widewing, I'm not sure you're testing them at full throttle height, which would be closer to 15k. [edit: 16k for the B, 14k for the E, I guess]



It might be a few mph slow in some cases (seems on the chart it hits almost 320mph at 10k), but it looks reasonable. Are you thinking of maybe the AVG hand-assembled engines that had more speed?

As to the P-40E, well that's an interesting topic. I believe some time many years back you mentioned this point and somebody came forward with a reference to some pilot handbook or some such. The specifics have been lost to time and memory, but I thought they basically gave some credence to the WEP option.

I first thought that perhaps it should have WEP, but not the WEP listed. If you notice the E6B, the actual WEP setting surpasses the listed rating.

An interesting read on the boost levels:
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,2418.msg133870.html?PHPSESSID=8d49763cf5be7949de333f3771e2a4ce#msg133870

That 56" seems to match our in-game WEP. However, this is a later 1943 clearance and before that was a field mod "overboost." It doesn't seem quite "wrong" but it's not entirely right either IMO.

This pilot manual:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/other-mechanical-systems-tech/p-40-flight-manual-4877.html#post185901
shows at Dec 1942 that the "official" max takeoff power was still 45.5" and 3000 rpm. Interestingly enough it also says do not lower flaps if faster than 140mph. Our P-40 drops flaps at several hundred mph last I recall.

Definitely deserves a re-visit. Needs to be combed over.

That SAS1946 link I posted above is quite interesting regarding power settings. May not add anything you all didn't know, but it was enlightening for me.



[edit: sorry, called him guppy, my bad was looking one place and quoting another. Fixed.]

[bortas1]

The P40's are one of those birds that NEED to be flown inside their invelope.  Meaning, they need room and a bit of speed. 

There is no fighter more difficult to succeed in than the P40B.  Some of the "name in lights" guys would get my respect if they landed kills in a P40B.  The old saing "fear the plyer not the plane" saying goes right out the window when the best of the best hop into a P40B.   

amen brother 

[STEELE]

Yeah, the P47 flight manual I posted a couple weeks ago also said "Do NOT lower flaps above 195 mph"

My problems with the P-40s are the speeds and woeful flaps.

First, both the P-40B (probably modeled on the Tomahawk IIB), is slower than it should be. The P-40B could easily manage 350 mph. Ours only manages 313 mph at 10k, whereas factory test data shows 336 mph at 10k. Max speed is only 334 mph at 15k. Again, that's even slower than the Tomahawk IIB (340-345 mph), but lacks the external fuel mount hardware of the Tomahawk.   

The P-40E is an odd duck. P-40Es didn't have WEP, but ours does. Max speed for the P-40E varied slightly with different tests, but we should see speeds between 355 mph and 360 mph. Our P-40E, even with WEP, can't do better than 346 mph at 12k using WEP.

As to maneuverability, the P-40B is a very good turning fighter. That is, until you get slow where flaps may be needed. At that point, it wallows like a herniated whale. For both the P-40s, the flaps are useless beyond one notch. Use full flaps and you suffer a huge penalty in turn rate, that cannot overcome the modest decrease in turn radius. Likewise for the P-40E. Both have nasty departure characteristics.

You can have fun in either type, but I have been disappointed in both since their introduction to the game.

hopefully the P40 series will reach their RL top speeds when they get remodled 

[Widewing]

P-40E speeds measured in-game:

16k: 339 mph
15k: 342 mph
14k: 347 mph w/WEP
13k: 351 mph w/WEP
12k: 347 mph w/WEP

[Krusty]

That seems to mesh with many sources online (some relatively reliable) that suggest from 352 to 355 mph top speed.

[Widewing]

P-40B speed measured in-game.

17k: 338 mph
16k: 337 mph
15k: 334 mph
14k: 330 mph
13k: 326 mph

[IrishOne]

My only suggestion... don't fly in front of bullits.

       great advice all around 

[Krusty]

WW: Is that because you think ours is the P-40C without a DT rack? I seem to recall that from a long ago discussion. Was the P-40C that much slower?

How is the P-40B doing what the P-40E is listed as doing for top speed. Less draggy nose, maybe?


EDIT: Interesting, you are on to something. It seems even the first P-40 models (before the A designation was retrofitted) made that much.

http://www.warbirdforum.com/p040.htm

"The first flight of a P-40 (Ser No 39-156) was on April 4, 1940. Maximum speed was 357 mph at 15,000 feet, service ceiling was 32,750 feet, and initial climb rate was 3080 feet per minute. An altitude of 15,000 feet could reached in 5.2 minutes. The length of the P-40 was 31 feet 8 3/4 inches, which became standard for all early models. Weights were 5376 pounds empty, 6787 pounds gross, and 7215 pounds maximum."

Joe Baugher's commentary. He's not always right on every detail but I think he's pretty good compared to many resources.

Here are his comments on the -B model:

"The P-40B (Model H81B) differed from the P-40 in having an extra 0.30-inch machine gun in each wing. The engine was still the V-1710-33. In September 1940, 131 P-40Bs were procured by the Army to replace the deferred P-40s. Serials were 41-5205/5304 and 41-13297/13327. The first P-40B flew on March 13, 1941. The P-40B retained the same dimensions of the P-40, but weight was increased to 5590 pounds empty, 7326 pounds gross, and 7600 pounds maximum loaded. Because of the additional weight, the P-40B had an inferior performance to the P-40, maximum speed being 352 mph, service ceiling being 32,400 feet, and initial climb rate being 2860 feet per minute. Normal range was 730 miles, but a maximum range of 1230 miles could be attained at the minimum cruise settings."

Very interesting that throughout all the changes from slick nose to big radiator, the speed rarely changed much!

[EDIT2:]

Seems even slow for a P-40C:

"The initial P-40 order was finally completed with 193 P-40Cs (company designation H81-B). Serials were 41-13328/13520. The first flight of a P-40C was made on April 10, 1941. The P-40C retained the 1150 hp Allison V-1710-33 engine, but was fitted with a new fuel system with 134 gallons in new tanks with improved self sealing. In addition, provisions were made for a 52-gallon drop tank below the fuselage. The P-40C had a SCR-247N radio instead of the SCR-283. These additions produced yet another upward crawl in the weight --- the weights for the P-40C were 5812 pounds empty, 7459 pounds gross, and 8058 pounds maximum loaded. Consequently, the performance continued to degrade. Maximum speed was 345 mph at 15,000 feet. Normal and maximum ranges were 730 and 945 miles respectively. Service ceiling was 29,500 feet, and initial climb rate was 2650 feet per minute. Dimensions were wingspan 27 feet 3 1/2 inches, length 31 feet 8 1/2 inches, height 10 feet 7 inches, wing area 236 square feet."

[Widewing]

It took 15 minutes to connect and post my reply, thus I tried it several times resulting in multiple posts. Typical AT&T servers.. I only see this problem with the Aces High forums.

[Widewing]

Duplicate post... See next post.

[Widewing]

WW: Is that because you think ours is the P-40C without a DT rack? I seem to recall that from a long ago discussion. Was the P-40C that much slower?

How is the P-40B doing what the P-40E is listed as doing for top speed. Less draggy nose, maybe?

Yes, our P-40B seems to be modeled on the P-40C/Tomahawk IIB. The added weight and drag of the external fuel tank mounting, added armor and internally sealed fuel tanks reduced performance. P-40Bs, like the AVG's Tomahawk hybrids, used external sealing on the fuel tanks and had no provision for an external tank with the added plumbing. That said, our P-40B is about 7 mph slower than the P-40C. It should easily reach 350 mph, and it's acceleration should be better than that of the heavier P-40E. Climb rate is less as well. I've been harping on this on and off since the P-40s were introduced.

The difference in the nose between the H81 and H87 series of P-40s is the result of a stronger and shorter reduction gear (and case). The reduction gear of the earlier P-40s was rated for only 1,100 hp. This is the prime cause for the unusual number of reduction gear failures among AVG Tomahawks. With their hand-assembled, blueprinted motors, the AVG fighters had as much as 1,300 hp on tap. AVG Tomahawks were about 15 mph faster than the P-40Es they received in the spring of 1942 (ferried in from Africa, via the middle east and India).

[Krusty]

I knew the AVG birds were that fast (and I recall the failures you mention) but I'm a little surprised how fast the stock B models were.

There's no gain from them to the P-40E and later models! That's rather enlightening.

[BnZs]

A P-40 that performs, like a P-51D that turns, would probably be so ruinously popular it would have to be perked, thus...