Author Topic: Better watch out!...  (Read 1164 times)

Offline Babalonian

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Re: Better watch out!...
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2011, 02:28:28 PM »
Hunting them will likely always be reserved as a niche specialty for extremely rare materials that are difficult or impossible to synthicate (ie: the small amount of whale oil used in the Huble space teliscope), cultural delicacys or historical heritage.  Until such a time that mankind nolonger sees the value in those things outweighing the life of a few whales, there is little to no viable alternatives that most of the world hasn't already considred or adopted.

I think the Sea Shepperd is a bunch of incompitent extremists, but to be fair they're targeting an industry serving those paying top-dollar for a luxurious cultural delicacy.  Culture and heritage is an important comodety to most of mankind, however I do not see most japanesse people withdrawing from their culture and heritage anymore than another individual over weather or not being able to afford a cultural experience/deilcacy that only the richest and powerful in their culture can afford endulging in.
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Offline Yossarian

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Re: Better watch out!...
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2011, 02:47:47 PM »
Yup, it was a hypothetical example to illustrate my opinion of these pirates. That is why that sentence started with "I would bet..." and the next sentence ended with "...in my opinion."

But you also said "It makes me thing...", which led me to believe that you were judging them based on a hypothetical.  That said, I suspect from what you just said that you were referring to an earlier sentence, which I don't really disagree with.

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Morality does trump legality, until you're in court for your moral actions. There are plenty of moral actions through out history that are horrible acts against humanity. (just helping illustrate your point about moral decisions/actions being subjective)

I'd argue that many of those actions (one that's in my head atm is bombing civilians in wartime - moral evil, or immoral and therefore wrong, I guess?) can probably be judged by certain 'rules' of morality.  I think the difficulty comes in when you try and determine what those 'rules' are: personally, I try and think about things from a starting point of certain ideas/values which I would consider to be absolute (i.e. killing is justified when done in self-defense [which can be extended to defense of a society, or defense of another person, or defense of another society - but unless done in direct self-defense should probably be examined extremely carefully, if only because of the immense cost of making a mistake - e.g. in declaring war], and that everyone has certain unalienable rights [unalienable because I think the consequences are too 'messy' when you start saying "you have these innate rights, however you will no longer have these rights if you commit act X, however if you commit act X in way Y, then you may still be allowed to retain these rights" which I don't think is simple enough to considered the basis for any basic rules of morality and also I see no reason why a person/group of people/government should be able to deny someone else these rights, and also unalienable because I see no reason why committing an action should allow you to lose these rights]).  However, not everyone will consider those things to be truths - a minority of those people might say 'everyone is evil and deserves to die' - I'd call them psychopaths, some might say 'people can lose these rights if they kill someone' - fair point, but I've never worked out precisely why murder means you lose the right to life (i.e. I can't think of any logical path from murder==>death penalty) (and in this case, I've heard people say 'it protects others', and 'they deserve to die' - but for the former, I'd say that's debatable, and there are more desirable alternatives, and in the latter I'd ask why).  And then, some people come up with different views on morality which haven't ever occurred to me, and which often lead to interesting debates.  And in case anyone thinks I'm overusing morality and logic here, and that I should just get on with my life: the latter's probably correct, but logic is well...logical, and if something isn't logical, it's probably wrong.

(just realised this has turned into a wall of text with overuse of brackets and probably weird phrasing - apologies! :))

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"Valid point about posing a danger to the people, but just because some peoples' livelihoods come off the whaling doesn't mean they should not be accountable for their actions."

Does this mean that you think coal miners should be looked down upon or suffer some kind of punishment for what they do because some people believe the burning of fossil fuels is destroying the environment? Or that loggers should be held accountable for the impact their jobs have on the world?

I think that there are several things to consider here - first is whether coal mining or logging is actually immoral.  I think two arguments need to be made, one being 'coal mining (and the by-products of coal use) harms the world/environment, and the other that coal plays a vital role in producing electricity, and sustaining society.  From that, I'd say that provided the coal-mining/use doesn't go out of control, the latter argument is more important, and that the current advantages of coal-mining outweigh the disadvantages (however, some would disagree), and so they're ultimately helping people overall.  However, by the nature of how companies work, if there were no need for coal, they probably wouldn't be mining it.

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Please keep in mind here guys that I am not trying to pick a fight or make anybody look stupid. I am just really enjoying a decent debate with people who have a different point of view than mine and can make valid and respectful counter points.  Keep it up Yoss, I'm having fun here.  :aok

Will do - I'm having fun too  ;)
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Offline F22RaptorDude

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Re: Better watch out!...
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2011, 02:50:03 PM »
Whales are not worth dying over, its complete BS to think a humans life is worth less than a whales.  :furious
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Offline Yossarian

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Re: Better watch out!...
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2011, 02:54:20 PM »
Whales are not worth dying over, its complete BS to think a humans life is worth less than a whales.  :furious

Who's dying over whales?
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Offline F22RaptorDude

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Re: Better watch out!...
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2011, 02:58:14 PM »
Who's dying over whales?
They say the whales are worth people's lives to save. He basically said you can die trying to save the whales and it would be okay.
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Offline Yossarian

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Re: Better watch out!...
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2011, 03:15:48 PM »
They say the whales are worth people's lives to save. He basically said you can die trying to save the whales and it would be okay.

Provided they're only talking about their own lives, then fine.  It's their decision to make whether a cause is worth dying for or not.  Some people are going to think that a country is always worth dying for, some will disagree.  In the same way, some will think that maintaining biodiversity (or some other 'thing' on this planet) is worth dying for, and some will disagree.  Until you've thought about the issues at hand, what you think they're worth, and ultimately whether you think the issue deserves your life, I'd say it's best not to make a judgement about it.
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Offline tmetal

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Re: Better watch out!...
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2011, 03:18:51 PM »
But you also said "It makes me thing...", which led me to believe that you were judging them based on a hypothetical. That said, I suspect from what you just said that you were referring to an earlier sentence, which I don't really disagree with.


Yeah, I was judging them based on that hypothetical, and that isn't really fair. whoops *insert wrist slap here*  But I do still see them as "world class d-bags" just based on what I have seen in the commercials and what has been discussed here and on other forums i frequent.  I am having trouble finding my line of text saying "It makes me think..." that you are referencing though, can you help a guy out?

Morality is such a complicated and subjective thing that it makes discussions like these almost impossible to resolve for everybody.
Your point about coal mining

"I think two arguments need to be made, one being 'coal mining (and the by-products of coal use) harms the world/environment, and the other that coal plays a vital role in producing electricity, and sustaining society.  From that, I'd say that provided the coal-mining/use doesn't go out of control, the latter argument is more important, and that the current advantages of coal-mining outweigh the disadvantages (however, some would disagree), and so they're ultimately helping people overall."  

can be applied to whaling as well. Who makes the decision about advantages and disadvantages of whaling? The Japanese obviously think that the advantages out weigh the disadvantages and the crew on the sea sheppard are of the opposite persuasion.
  
That is why we have laws (not a perfect solution, but it is the one we have to work with) and I just keep coming back to my previous statement that the whalers are not doing anything unlawful (sleazy, maybe. but that is just opinion), and the actions taken by the sea sheppard sure seem to be in direct disregard of the law.  When people start thinking they are above the law because of a higher moral authority, it will normally lead to bad things that often times are worse than what these people where ignoring the law to combat in the first place. For example what happens if/when some one aboard the sea sheppard or one of the whaling vessels dies as a direct result of the actions taken by the sea Sheppard crew? Is it ok to write off that person's life because the whale activists feel they were answering to a higher moral authority?

BTW, well put on your reply to F22 Yoss
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Offline Tigger29

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Re: Better watch out!...
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2011, 04:25:48 PM »
All I know is that if I were operating a fishing vessel legally (whether it was due to a legal loophole or not I feel is not the point here) and some activists came up to my boat and tried to set it on fire, tried to ram me... tried to otherwise harm my property and my crew... well they would have hell to pay.

And then if I found out that it was all TAPED AND BROADCAST ON CABLE TV I would be consulting a lawyer so quick to sue the pants out of that network!  The fact that hasn't yet happened tells me that one of the following must be true...

1> Everything is staged
2> Discovery Channel "paid off" the company operating these Whaling vessels
3> The company that operates these Whaling vessels DID sue and they settled for a undisclosed monetary amount (essentially the same as #2)

I'm not saying that I'm on the side of the Whalers here.. I'm just saying that something doesn't seem quite right about it all which makes me thing that everything is staged, just like all of the other so called "reality" shows on TV are these days...

Offline BoilerDown

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Re: Better watch out!...
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2011, 04:42:55 PM »
All I know is that if I were operating a fishing vessel legally (whether it was due to a legal loophole or not I feel is not the point here) and some activists came up to my boat and tried to set it on fire, tried to ram me... tried to otherwise harm my property and my crew... well they would have hell to pay.

And then if I found out that it was all TAPED AND BROADCAST ON CABLE TV I would be consulting a lawyer so quick to sue the pants out of that network!  The fact that hasn't yet happened tells me that one of the following must be true...

1> Everything is staged
2> Discovery Channel "paid off" the company operating these Whaling vessels
3> The company that operates these Whaling vessels DID sue and they settled for a undisclosed monetary amount (essentially the same as #2)

I'm not saying that I'm on the side of the Whalers here.. I'm just saying that something doesn't seem quite right about it all which makes me thing that everything is staged, just like all of the other so called "reality" shows on TV are these days...

Or you could be completely wrong and it all is in fact real.

In before "What is real?".


More seriously, if it was staged, we would know.  Bear Grillis staged some parts of Man vs. Wild in order to demonstrate survival techniques.  And even though his show is far less controversial, it was a big deal that the show didn't sufficiently state that the scenario was set up in advance for demonstration purposes.  With a show as controversial as Whale Wars, which has a much higher number of people involved, if anything was staged like you are suggesting we would know about it.  Its real, excepting the Paul Watson shooting incident, that was completely fake, but he put it over on Discovery and they had to "cover" it.

As for the legality, there is no law enforcement agency willing to take action.  Its the wild wild west.  A boat was sunk and nothing came of it.  Until someone dies both sides can do whatever the hell they want with practically no consequences.  Might makes right.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Better watch out!...
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2011, 05:16:20 PM »
Or you could be completely wrong and it all is in fact real.

In before "What is real?".


More seriously, if it was staged, we would know.  Bear Grillis staged some parts of Man vs. Wild in order to demonstrate survival techniques.  And even though his show is far less controversial, it was a big deal that the show didn't sufficiently state that the scenario was set up in advance for demonstration purposes.  With a show as controversial as Whale Wars, which has a much higher number of people involved, if anything was staged like you are suggesting we would know about it.  Its real, excepting the Paul Watson shooting incident, that was completely fake, but he put it over on Discovery and they had to "cover" it.

As for the legality, there is no law enforcement agency willing to take action.  Its the wild wild west.  A boat was sunk and nothing came of it.  Until someone dies both sides can do whatever the hell they want with practically no consequences.  Might makes right.


So you're saying, eventualy, it's all going to boil down to a reality TV show about two real fleets in the Antartic Ocean, in the 21st century, going at it with broadsides? 

My bet's on the Whaler's fleet or whoever shows up with a 16th-century man-o-war in their mercenary fleet first.
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Offline Meatwad

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Re: Better watch out!...
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2011, 08:37:17 PM »
leave the whales alone or that big cigar looking spaceship will attach earth like it did on the star trek movie :bolt:

Easy solution. Go around the sun at max warp in a Klingon bird of prey to go back in time to get some more.
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Offline Vulcan

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Re: Better watch out!...
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2011, 08:50:53 PM »
Check the news. They actually won last season, that's why the show is back.


Nothing to do with the drop in demand for whale meat in japan, or the excessive stockpiles they have of whalemeat, combined with a recession.... yeah right.

In fact from what I heard sea shepherd prolonged the japanese whaling operations (japanese psyche thing about not wanting to be seen to back down).