Author Topic: Strange Electrical Issues  (Read 459 times)

Offline Motherland

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Strange Electrical Issues
« on: June 14, 2011, 11:56:09 PM »
Anyone know a good site where I can find good advice for this kind of thing? I don't know if there's anyone who has intimate knowledge here. Just in case.

Here's the rundown. Vacuuming yesterday I <thought> I tripped the breaker, but on resetting the breaker the power didn't turn on. Well, OK, that's odd. Several hours later it just kind of randomly flicks back on. The general consensus turned into "don't worry about it".
Today I was again vacuuming on the same outlet and the power went out on one of the instances where I turned the vacuum on (same as the day before). This time, however, there was only that vacuum cleaner on on the circuit (and a wall unit in another room, I'm not sure). "Well, that's a sign something else as wrong I guess.." So I turned the breaker off and we decided to do some investigating...
2/5 outlets on the circuit, and the fans in each of the rooms (which are on that circuit) work. Each of the receptacles/poles on the outlet excite a detector wand thing (whereas on a working outlet the neutral pole will not excite the wand). On a three prong/three light outlet detector each of these outlets read 'open neutral' (to me this seems odd but...). One of the outlets that does not work is the end of the circuit. We've replaced that outlet and another one of the ones that doesn’t work, which didn't help anything.
Here the plot thickens. There's one more outlet in each of the affected rooms, which is on a different circuit. The one in my room works perfectly fine, as do the rest of them. The outlet on the other side of the wall to that, which is in the opposite room, thus theoretically on the same circuit, will not power a device, and gives the same 'neutral open reading' on the outlet tester. However, here the plot thickens… the outlet sets off the detector wand whether the circuit I believe it to be on (#11) or the circuit that the rest of the affected outlets are on (#29) has power. Only when both circuits are off does this outlet have no power. If only circuit #29 is off it gives an ‘open hot’ reading on the 3 light tester if I remember correctly. In any case, it won’t power and appliance. This outlet stopped working when I turned on the vacuum earlier along with the other ones.
Here’s a (very poorly drawn) map.


Offline AAJagerX

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Re: Strange Electrical Issues
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2011, 12:24:48 AM »
Just a guess, but it seems like the outlet that you've labeled "both" may be wired incorrectly, possibly sharing a common with the other circuit.   :headscratch:
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 12:52:08 AM by AAJagerX »
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Strange Electrical Issues
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2011, 01:00:43 AM »
Just a guess, but it seems like the outlet that you've labeled "both" may be wired incorrectly, possibly sharing a common with the other circuit.   :headscratch:

Worst case scenario is that this outlet is wired with two phases meaning instead of phase and ground it has two hot phases connected which will result in double voltage and equipment damage. Have you measured the voltage out of the plug, does it show a normal reading?
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Strange Electrical Issues
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 07:58:25 AM »
Anyone know a good site where I can find good advice for this kind of thing? I don't know if there's anyone who has intimate knowledge here. Just in case.

Here's the rundown. Vacuuming yesterday I <thought> I tripped the breaker, but on resetting the breaker the power didn't turn on. Well, OK, that's odd. Several hours later it just kind of randomly flicks back on. The general consensus turned into "don't worry about it".
Today I was again vacuuming on the same outlet and the power went out on one of the instances where I turned the vacuum on (same as the day before). This time, however, there was only that vacuum cleaner on on the circuit (and a wall unit in another room, I'm not sure). "Well, that's a sign something else as wrong I guess.." So I turned the breaker off and we decided to do some investigating...
2/5 outlets on the circuit, and the fans in each of the rooms (which are on that circuit) work. Each of the receptacles/poles on the outlet excite a detector wand thing (whereas on a working outlet the neutral pole will not excite the wand). On a three prong/three light outlet detector each of these outlets read 'open neutral' (to me this seems odd but...). One of the outlets that does not work is the end of the circuit. We've replaced that outlet and another one of the ones that doesn’t work, which didn't help anything.
Here the plot thickens. There's one more outlet in each of the affected rooms, which is on a different circuit. The one in my room works perfectly fine, as do the rest of them. The outlet on the other side of the wall to that, which is in the opposite room, thus theoretically on the same circuit, will not power a device, and gives the same 'neutral open reading' on the outlet tester. However, here the plot thickens… the outlet sets off the detector wand whether the circuit I believe it to be on (#11) or the circuit that the rest of the affected outlets are on (#29) has power. Only when both circuits are off does this outlet have no power. If only circuit #29 is off it gives an ‘open hot’ reading on the 3 light tester if I remember correctly. In any case, it won’t power and appliance. This outlet stopped working when I turned on the vacuum earlier along with the other ones.
Here’s a (very poorly drawn) map.
(Image removed from quote.)


 depending on where in pa you are, there's a local electrician that's a customer of mine. his rates seem reasonable, and he's a pretty cool guy. he just went into business on his own.

 pm me if ya want his number. he's in cherry hill nj.
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Strange Electrical Issues
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 08:31:51 AM »
I never trust the tweeter wands.

A multimeter goes a long way in troubleshooting these things

Based on your description it sounds like you are using a 3 prong plug-in style tester with 3 LED indicators side by side. Those testers are good for a quick polarity check and testing grounds, but are not of much use when it comes to troubleshooting. If you have a regular digital voltage tester then run tests for voltage from hot to neutral (should be ~110VAC), hot to ground (should be ~110VAC), neutral to ground (should be ~0VAC), continuity between neutral and ground (should be low/no resistance with the breaker off for any continuity tests), continuity between hot and ground and hot and neutral (should be open circuit or very high resistance with the breaker off for continuity tests).

If this testing shows no continuity between the ground and neutral then the neutral connection in the receptacle may be open, the connection between the neutral wire and the neutral bus in the panel may be loose or a connection may be loose somewhere between the panel and this receptacle.

Also check the neutral on another circuit or two. If that is open too then the neutral bus may have come loose in the panel. Check that out and remove, clean and retighten the connections. If there is corrosion in the breaker box then you may need to disconnect, clean and reconnect all the connections (hot, neutral and ground) to avoid intermittent issues on other circuits as well.

If that doesn't fix it then there could also be a receptacle outlet, light switch, or a junction box between the panel and this receptacle and a loose neutral connection could be there.

Trace the circuit back to the breaker panel and check the neutral. If you find a point in the circuit where the neutral is connected then you can start working between there and the end of the line to find the open connection.

If you don't have a good neutral somewhere else along the circuit, but the neutral is connected to the bus in the panel then you will need to check and tighten the neutral connections. Make sure the circuit breaker is off when you do this. Check/tighten the connections to the neutral bus bar in the breaker box and work your way back out to the end of the line tightening the connections as you go.


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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Strange Electrical Issues
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2011, 02:57:01 PM »
Looks like an apartment or condo going off your sketch, little small for a small house.  First make sure this is your responcibility to fix or not first.  When I had my apartment I didn't mind doing most simple fixes myself, but any 110VAC wiring I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole in that 50+ year old building.

My second guess is, if this is a rental, the wall you have labeled as "Both" may of been a later addition to the unit than the other walls.  That or the outlet on it was added later than its original construction.  Either one would be good reasons to suspect that that wall and the outlets on/in it were not properly installed and the "electrician" who installed it previously simply pulled it and ran it to the easiest circuit.  Properly, it should be on the same circuit as the rest of the outlets in those two rooms, or if added later to handle additional equipment/loads (ie: fridge, A/C, electrical heater, dish washer, electric stove, etc.) not forseen during the original design it should be on it's own circuit/breaker.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 03:05:54 PM by Babalonian »
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Strange Electrical Issues
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2011, 05:48:04 PM »
I only drew the top floor as those circuits don't go anywhere else, it's our (well, the bank's) house.
It turned out that the outlet opposite the really weird one was extremely faulty despite working (the wires more or less desintigrated as it was pulled out), so replacing that rectified everything (apparently that outlet was near the beginning of the circuit), even the one on 'both' circuits. So we're go until something else goes wrong.

Offline Dragon

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Re: Strange Electrical Issues
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2011, 06:09:31 PM »
Not to be a pessimist, but it sounds like a house fire waiting to happen if the wires are deteriorating upon pulling the outlet.  You might put some serious consideration into having them all rewired. Correctly!

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Offline STEELE

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Re: Strange Electrical Issues
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2011, 05:52:17 AM »
The plot thickened twice!  :D  Sounds like a poorly connected Neutral, but who knows.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Strange Electrical Issues
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2011, 03:58:32 PM »
Hate to side with Dragon, but I've been in an electrical house fire that started in the middle of the first night we had rain for the season (coincidently, it was Halloween), was really not fun and fortunate I was up late at the time on the computer to get my ex grandfather in-law (may he RIP) and his eldest daughter out in time (my Ex whom I was staying there with at the time was out late trick or treating with her youngest sister and friend). 

It was single story, 3/4 of the house was an insurance writeoff and had to be rebuilt from the foundation up, the only corner spared was the furthest one with a chunk of the living room and the whole garage.  Worst Halloween and one of my longest nights ever, fortunatley I didn't have work the next day so I spent the whole night up until the home depot opened and I got the entire place boarded up before noon, and the house across the street had just gone up for rent that week and the owner was a longtime good neighbor of the Ex's family so he put them up right across the street for free until the insurance came through and paid him in full for the time rented during the rebuilding.  In the end it worked out, thankfuly because of the insurance and investigator figuring out the cause of the fire, otherwise it would of been an absolute nightmare. 

I'd at least systematicly pull each outlet and have a gander at the whole situation you have, don't know if you'll have to go as far as a complete rewiring, but if necessary...  for now just survey the situation yourself, make any imediate critical (wires disintigrating, thick corrosion, etc.) or easy repairs.  Go from there, if similar to my ex grandfather's you might be able to figure out if it's only one wall that's a problem/danger due to leaking at a seam in the roof and resulting corrosion and spare yourself a nasty surprise later on.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 04:10:44 PM by Babalonian »
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Wow, you guys need help.