P-47 flaps

[colmbo]

you also arent suppost to do slip landings with flaps down in 172s.but ive done em before

If you truly believe that you need to re-read the 172 POH.  With the exception of the 1969 model there is no prohibition against slipping with flaps in a 172.  There is a caution that caution should be used in slips with full flaps...but it is NOT a prohibiting statement.

I find it scary how many people are flying airplanes and don't have a friggen clue what the POH says.

[colmbo]

Hell, maybe it's just badly written manual. Did anybody read them anyway?

The manuals of that era weren't very well written.  The B-24 manual in the section on engine loss during takeoff, two engines out says "This shouldn't happen to a dog."  While I whole-heartedly agree with the statement I doubt it adds a lot to the knowledge needed to fly the airplane.  (Sheesh, just thinking about flying with 2 out on one side makes my leg start shaking)

[bj229r]

The manual for the P-47B stated that hey wouldn't snap off they would blow up. If they blew up asymmetrically you'd have a control issue.   

Was the 47B even deployed? If so...likely not very long (that being said, I couldn't tell you the difference between the B and the C)

[Stoney]

Was the 47B even deployed? If so...likely not very long (that being said, I couldn't tell you the difference between the B and the C)

No, it wasn't, but I think the manual FLS mentions covered the B, C, early D's, and G models.  For the most part, other than some semi-major, combat related changes between the B and C models, they were very similar.  But, I don't think the flap system changed from the B to the M, and was merely larger for the N model.  The only thing is that the idea of maneuvering flaps, on the whole, was something that evolved over the course of the war.  So, there's a good chance early POH's don't mention them anyway.  I don't know if anyone know's whether or not the P-38E/F/G POHs mention "maneuvering" flaps like the latest J/L POH does?

 

[FLS]

No, it wasn't, but I think the manual FLS mentions covered the B, C, early D's, and G models.  For the most part, other than some semi-major, combat related changes between the B and C models, they were very similar.  But, I don't think the flap system changed from the B to the M, and was merely larger for the N model.  The only thing is that the idea of maneuvering flaps, on the whole, was something that evolved over the course of the war.  So, there's a good chance early POH's don't mention them anyway.  I don't know if anyone know's whether or not the P-38E/F/G POHs mention "maneuvering" flaps like the latest J/L POH does?

 

Stoney the quote specific to the B model was from a pdf on the P-47B. Unfortunately the title page with the manual number is missing. I didn't see the reference to flaps blowing up in the B,C,D,G or the N manual.

[Widewing]

P-47 flaps have a 3-position lever. Up, Neutral and Down. Flaps can be set at any position between fully up and full down. The pilot moves the lever to the down position. When the flaps were lowered to the desired position, the pilot then moves the lever to the Neutral position to lock them there. In game, we have 5 flap positions. However, like the real F6F-5, a real P-47 has an infinite number of possible flap positions. I imagine that this could be incorporated into the game, much like adjusting elevator trim.

[colmbo]

like the real F6F-5, a real P-47 has an infinite number of possible flap positions. I imagine that this could be incorporated into the game, much like adjusting elevator trim.

B-17 and B-24 were this way also...infinite number of possible flap settings.

[bj229r]

the thing is, how simple was it to apply the equivalent of a notch or 2 during a split ess or something, while maybe firing guns at a fleeting target, and then just as quickly removing said notch or 2?

[Widewing]

It wasn't easy at all... Which is one reason why flaps were not commonly used in dogfights. It takes practice and mental training to do multiple things at one time. Trying learning Heel and Toe braking/down shifting... Takes a lot of practice to get it nailed consistently.

[colmbo]

It wasn't easy at all... Which is one reason why flaps were not commonly used in dogfights. It takes practice and mental training to do multiple things at one time. Trying learning Heel and Toe braking/down shifting... Takes a lot of practice to get it nailed consistently.

In the Mustang it wouldn't be a big deal, it has detents so a quick flick of the flap lever would select the flaps.  I don't see it being a huge deal in any of the aircraft IF the flap control could be reached easily with the throttle hand.  You wouldn't have to look at the gauge to determine exact amount of flap extension, you could go by feel and get it close.

[gyrene81]

interesting conversation, glad i'm not the one that brought it up.    the first discussion i got into about flaps around here, i was told the specifications being used came from information in the pilot manuals. i have a bunch of scanned to pdf format bf109 pilot manuals, some have "safe speed" specifications and some don't.

so now that someone else has mentioned it, if the bf109-g4 and the bf-109g6/u4 pilot manual had the following information would it be considered relevant to the models in ah considering the flap types and deployment mechanisms are the same across the entire line of 109s?


das flugzeug genügt den bau - und festigkeit vorschriften des dla vom dezember 1936 sowie den sonderlastannahmen hierzu. es ist bestimmt fur die verwendungsgruppe h und entspricht den anforderungen beanspruchungsgruppe 5 und 4 je nach beladung.

the aircraft complies with the building - and the strength dla provisions of december 1936 and the last took on special purpose. it is intended for the reuse group h and meets the requirements to test group 5 and 4, depending on load.

höchstzulässige geschwindigkeiten
maximum speeds


flug bei voll angestellten landeklappen ..... 250 km/h
fully employed in flight landing flap .... 155.34 mph

flug mit ausgefahrenem fahrwerk .... 350 km/h
flight with landing gear ..... 217.48 mph

sturzflug .... 750 km/h
nosedive .... 466.03 mph


none of the pilot manuals or technical documents i've found state any speed restrictions for any degree of flap deflection other than full deployments, yet in ah you cannot deploy even 10 degrees above 195 ias in an aircraft that used a hand cranked manual flap deployment mechanism.

[Debrody]

flug bei voll angestellten landeklappen ..... 250 km/h
fully employed in flight landing flap .... 155.34 mph

flug mit ausgefahrenem fahrwerk .... 350 km/h
flight with landing gear ..... 217.48 mph

sturzflug .... 750 km/h
nosedive .... 466.03 mph

The first number represents the speed when you can open full flaps - es stimmt.
350km/h can be the the highest speed you can open the flaps - almost stimmt, you cant open the flaps over 195, the gear over 200mph.
But 466mph?? It must be some dive recovering mechanism, but im sure your planes flaps dont really appreciate when you try to open them at 450mph+.

[gyrene81]

The first number represents the speed when you can open full flaps - es stimmt.
350km/h can be the the highest speed you can open the flaps - almost stimmt, you cant open the flaps over 195, the gear over 200mph.
But 466mph?? It must be some dive recovering mechanism, but im sure your planes flaps dont really appreciate when you try to open them at 450mph+.

that's not how it reads debrody, "es ist bestimmt" = "it is determined", how that gets changed to "it is intended" in that long sentence i don't know. i'm still looking for documentation on those "groups" mentioned.

the 466 mph is maximum safe dive speed, has nothing to do with the flaps or landing gear...considering the information relayed by pilots about how heavy the controls get with high speeds, i suppose one can assume anything above 466 mph in a dive becomes unrecoverable, but then some of it might depend on the pilots physical ability.

[bozon]

P-47 flaps have a 3-position lever. Up, Neutral and Down. Flaps can be set at any position between fully up and full down.
...

Which explains why the manual only gives the limit for full flaps. It would not specify limits for arbitrary flap positions, unless such specific flap angles has a specific intended use. Clearly they didn't.

[Karnak]

Which explains why the manual only gives the limit for full flaps. It would not specify limits for arbitrary flap positions, unless such specific flap angles has a specific intended use. Clearly they didn't.

That being the case, it makes one wonder how HTC decided the speed limits for each increment of the P-47's flaps in AH?