Something I thought the AH community would like to see

[mbailey]

German capture a lot of allies bombers and fighters. Too bad they didn't develop these worthless fighters.......

(Image removed from quote.)

Finally a classy German Fighter  

Thanks for the pics Marine 

[dedalos]

How did the number of guns pointing at you effect the number of hits required to bring the plane down? 

[icepac]

Also......when extrapolated to 13mm/12.7mm/50cal, how many of these rounds are required to bring one down?

[Penguin]

How did the number of guns pointing at you effect the number of hits required to bring the plane down? 

More guns meant more ammo, and a higher fire rate.

For example, the rate of fire on a MK 108 cannon is 650 rounds per minute.  Let's say that it had 500 rounds.
That means that an aircraft with one MK 108 cannon could fire 500 rounds in 10/13 of a minute.

However, an aircraft with four MK 108 cannons with 500 rounds each could fire 2,000 rounds in 10/13 of a minute.  This meant that an aircraft with four cannons could kill a bomber four times more quickly than an aircraft with only one.

-Penguin

[dedalos]

More guns meant more ammo, and a higher fire rate.

For example, the rate of fire on a MK 108 cannon is 650 rounds per minute.  Let's say that it had 500 rounds.
That means that an aircraft with one MK 108 cannon could fire 500 rounds in 10/13 of a minute.

However, an aircraft with four MK 108 cannons with 500 rounds each could fire 2,000 rounds in 10/13 of a minute.  This meant that an aircraft with four cannons could kill a bomber four times more quickly than an aircraft with only one.

-Penguin

I was talking about this:

After examining wrecked B-17s and B-24s, Luftwaffe officers discovered that on average it took around 20 hits with 20 mm (0.79 in) shells fired from the rear to bring them down.[81] Pilots of average ability hit the bombers with only about two percent of the rounds they fired, so to obtain 20 hits, the average pilot had to fire one thousand 20 mm (0.79 in) rounds at a bomber.[81] Early versions of the Fw 190, one of the best German interceptor fighters, were equipped with two 20 mm (0.79 in) MG FF cannons, which carried only 500 rounds, and later with the better Mauser MG 151/20 cannons, which had a longer effective range than the MG FF weapon. The German fighters found that when attacking from the front, where fewer defensive guns were pointed, it only took four or five hits to bring a bomber down.[81] To address the Fw 190's shortcomings, the number of cannons fitted was doubled to four with a corresponding increase in the amount of ammunition carried, and in 1944, a further upgrade to Rheinmetall-Borsig's 30 mm (1.2 in) MK 108 cannons was made, which could bring a bomber down in just a few hits.[81]

Never mind though, now that I read it again I think the number of guns comment is relevant and just mentioned for extra info.  The reason would be killing the pilot or damaging flying instruments and parts when attacking from the front.  Not enough coffee yet 

[Penguin]

It's all good.

-Penguin

[Charge]

Yeah, of course you could have one 20mm cannon with 1000 rounds but such configuration would be quite useless against bombers since there is only so much time to loiter on bomber's 6oc before either an escort shoots you down or the hail of defensive fire hits you. Thus it is essential to determine how many cannons the airframe can carry to get the time of firing as short as possible with as much lead in the air and in as short time as possible.

 

-C+

[MORAY37]

I was talking about this:

After examining wrecked B-17s and B-24s, Luftwaffe officers discovered that on average it took around 20 hits with 20 mm (0.79 in) shells fired from the rear to bring them down.[81] Pilots of average ability hit the bombers with only about two percent of the rounds they fired, so to obtain 20 hits, the average pilot had to fire one thousand 20 mm (0.79 in) rounds at a bomber.[81] Early versions of the Fw 190, one of the best German interceptor fighters, were equipped with two 20 mm (0.79 in) MG FF cannons, which carried only 500 rounds, and later with the better Mauser MG 151/20 cannons, which had a longer effective range than the MG FF weapon. The German fighters found that when attacking from the front, where fewer defensive guns were pointed, it only took four or five hits to bring a bomber down.[81] To address the Fw 190's shortcomings, the number of cannons fitted was doubled to four with a corresponding increase in the amount of ammunition carried, and in 1944, a further upgrade to Rheinmetall-Borsig's 30 mm (1.2 in) MK 108 cannons was made, which could bring a bomber down in just a few hits.[81]

Never mind though, now that I read it again I think the number of guns comment is relevant and just mentioned for extra info.  The reason would be killing the pilot or damaging flying instruments and parts when attacking from the front.  Not enough coffee yet 

Kinetic energy of the round would be multiplied by the closing speeds.

Also, leading edges of aircraft are exceedingly important to their inherent airworthiness.    Trailing edge hits effect control, but not airworthiness, per say.

[MarineUS]

That second pic is gut wrenching. Hopefully the concussion took everyone out quick because it looks like a huge fireball.

There are 3 pictures of this plane going down. The plane ended up exploding into hundreds of pieces while in mid-air.

It is a very saddening photo, which is why I uploaded it. A reminder of how real this all once was...and still is to some.
Here is information about THAT particular bomber. Apparently only the pilot survived...I'd want to/but would hate to hear his story....
"a casualty report for the April 8, 1945 mission for this aircraft (333) and it lists Lt. Fuller (pilot) as the only survivor. There are four listed as MIA and the tail turret gunner is one of them along with the navigator, waist gunner and ball turret gunner and all four are listed on the wall of the missing in the Netherlands (obviously done after the war). Haavelar's book also corroborates that Lt. Fuller was the only survivor. " There are some random accounts saying the tail gunner also survived but the records state it was only Lt. Fuller who made it...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/18532986@N07/4528354315/in/set-72157624003121160
Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress

"Wee Willie"
B-17G-15-BO Flying Fortress
s/n 42-31333
322nd Bomb Squadron, 91st Bomb Group, 8th Air Force.
She was lost on April 8,1945 over the marshalling yards at Stendal, killing all the crew (not crew in the photo) but the pilot (1stLt. Robert E. Fuller). There is a famous photo of her after the flak hit caused the wing to come off.
She was also a veteran of over 120 missions and was the last 91st BG plane lost in combat during the war.
-----------

Check this one out:
Here is a random photo depicting the sheer ability of the B17.

"Bombardier killed instantly, pilot flew this ship home from Cologne to the 398th at Nuthampstead, October 15, 1944. Our crew on the same mission that day,  lost 2 engines and suffered severe flak damage, but of course nothing like this."
- http://www.b17sam.com/



Here is a link dedicated to World War II pilots and crews.: http://www.flickr.com/photos/18532986@N07/sets/72157624003121160/detail/

Finally a classy German Fighter 

Thanks for the pics Marine 

You're welcome

How did the number of guns pointing at you effect the number of hits required to bring the plane down? 

Less $#!^ to dodge   haha Ability to actualy concentrate fire. idk. It's 5:02AM and I haven't been to sleep yet, I'll have to dig around some when I wake up lol

[dedalos]

Kinetic energy of the round would be multiplied by the closing speeds.

Also, leading edges of aircraft are exceedingly important to their inherent airworthiness.    Trailing edge hits effect control, but not airworthiness, per say.

yeah, yeah, I was questioning the "fewer guns pointed".  I just ignored the comas on the first pass.

[Maverick]

Good read, thanks