IL2...why can we not change gunsights?

[Krusty]

Our IL2 is not an early model. Early models were single seaters. Then they cut a hole behind the cockpit and put a gunner there (in the open air) then later they actually built the plane with a rear seat, and with an enclosed gunner. The crux of the matter is there were MANY IL2 variant, only the last at the VERY end of the war having reflector sights included.


I don't fully believe your comments regarding P-40Bs and lack of reflectors. I believe it has been brought up before and contradicted in the past.

[bustr]

I know Krusty. I'm getting old with tired eyes and the 50mil Il2 inner wire ring is too sloppy for that first 37mm round befor the recoil kicks the aim around on full zoom without a center marker.

If you zoom to about 400% on the first picture down in the link you will see a PBP or PAk in the Il2 through the windscreen. Also if the picture from the handbook is WW2 and not POST WW2 Cold War, then a gunsight is valid as SOP equiptment as they became available to the VVS. Like the USN, USM, AAF and RAF standardising, retrofitting and upgrading everything they flew with N2, N3, Mk8, N9 and MkIII as soon as they were available.

The only reason the VVS didn't have optical gunsights eariler is they didn't have the industry ramped up for it. Even our I16 has a PBP1 but, it should be a PAK-1 which is a copy of the Revi-1. Until around 43 the average VVS gunsight for most aircraft was drawn on the inside of the wind screen or a metal ring affair.

As soon as that segment of their war industry was pumping them out everything with forward firing guns got reflector gunsights. Befor that front line units upgraded on site as they could get the equipment which was pretty standard for the VVS until their aviation industry kicked into full production around late 43 to 44. Russia was a bit different than the US, Britan, Germany or Japan in that they didn't come into the war with an industry capable of a reliable or high output of sophisticated instraments enmass.

Babs is right about our Il2 ordinace in refrence to the time frame avaialbility of PBP and PAK gunsights for Il2. Hey it's not like we are arguing over an IL10........max speed around 340mph and one version had 4 NS-23 cannons, standard 2. The rear gunner had a BT-20 20mm.......it was rated for low level air to air combat.

http://redskyblackdeath.wordpress.com/the-shturmovik/
http://www.airpages.ru/eng/ru/il10.shtml

[Babalonian]

Our IL2 is not an early model. Early models were single seaters. Then they cut a hole behind the cockpit and put a gunner there (in the open air) then later they actually built the plane with a rear seat, and with an enclosed gunner. The crux of the matter is there were MANY IL2 variant, only the last at the VERY end of the war having reflector sights included.


I don't fully believe your comments regarding P-40Bs and lack of reflectors. I believe it has been brought up before and contradicted in the past.

I wouldn't believe them myself Krusty until I dig up some sources, you know better in this forum, and I'm jogging them from pure mortal memory on this issue. 

My recollection is early P-40s pre-US involvement in WWII were being cranked out as they were one of a few aircraft at the time approved for lend-lease export, as such they were very basic and lacked many if not most provisions for combat capable aircraft when they got off the production line, including if I recall correctly their guns, radios, and (since they had no guns installed) no gunsights.  Those comming off the production line that got shipped overseas weren't much if any different comming off the line than those marked to be flown by US services.  Much like those that got delivered overseas, the ones delivered to the US needed provisioning of such things.  I'm pretty sure one of the standard provisions for the P-40 by the US was a reflector sight, ontop of the guns and radio equipment.... however, and here's the kicker in my head why I don't think early P-40s should have a reflector at all, most these early US-provisioned P-40s didn't actually see any combat.  The ones seeing the majority of combat, of the early P-40 series, were the ones exported from the US, and what they got provisioned or were capable of provisioning to them varied very very much from plane to plane and theatre to theatre, and many if not most did not have a reflector sight (which the pilots and their commanders wanted but I believe couldn't, to the best of their abilities and various circumstances, obtain).

Later model P-40s, post pearl-harbor, had more combat provisions installed in them at the factory and came off it more war-ready for both US delivieries (of cource) and those being exported to aid our allies in their war effort.

And my argument for the IL2 is more of speculation: that it apears we have one of the later production models, we certainly have the 37mm option that only became available later in their production, so it is not unreasonable or even close to far-fetched to request a reflector sight that the later models also stated seeing as they became available to them (much like the 37mm cannons).

[dirtdart]

I will qualify my posts.  If HTC allows you to put whatever gunsight you wish on an airplane, including ones that never, ever existed, then why should certain planes only have the option of their standard sight?  Regardless of whether the IL-2 or A-20 had steel sights.  No statement of realism can be used to contradict this for aforemetioned reasons.  It is another example of "realism" for the sake of "realism" at the expense of "realism".

Not attacking you Krusty, just saying that any argument towards the OP observation is moot, unless programming comes up and says.... the plane is modeled that way and it would be too difficult to change it, it will stay the way it is...for example.  Although when that day comes, I might by those ocean front lots in arizona I always wanted. 

[Widewing]

The P40B originaly used an external "Ring and Post" gunsight. Those in Burma and China flown by the AVG used them. The P40B was quickly upgraded to N2 and N3 reflector gunsights when available by the USAAF and RAF in all theaters. In the case of how Aces High deals with the P40B and its gunsight, a parallel argument is appropriate for putting PBP-1 or PAK-1 gunsights into the IL-2M(23mm VYa) and IL-2 Type 3M(NS-37) in Aces High. A reflector gunsight is a superior aiming instrament for guns, bombs and rockets than a fixed ring or wind screen marker. As reflector gunsights became readily available the russians upgraded everything they could.
 

By Mid June of 1942, most remaining AVG Tomahawks were fitted with reflector sights. All P-40Es were delivered with them. However, the Chinese government did procure rebuilt British Mk II gunsights earlier (November of 1941). Unfortunately, these were delivered in March of '42 without bulbs and spare parts, making them useless.

[Widewing]

Here's a photo of the Curtiss Test Pilots with a P-40B, circa early 1941 at the Buffalo factory. Note that the legendary Herb Fisher is the guy squatting on the wing. P-40Bs were delivered without government purchased equipment... No guns, no sights and only a basic radio installation to safely fly the aircraft.

[bustr]

Thanks Widewing, I thought the Chinese gov was doing the whole thing on the cheap with few spare parts far and in between until 43.

Player made maps, skins and gunsights allows a segment of the player base to feel closer to the game than just the combat. A custom "graticule" for your gunsight device gives a feed back for some players that they have just a bit more control over the outcome of their in game happiness. It's a harmless MOD like building your own Altair 8800 or IMSAI 8080 so you can flip switches and watch led's light up. No body pays a fee to keep playing a game to loose indefinantly.

A PAK1 or PBP1 gunsight in the IL2 will not change the fact that the Wirbel will win more often than the IL2 will because of needing to be 600 or closer to damage or destroy it. The NS-37 trials showed the AP ammo to have its best penetration starting at about 400 unless you were shooting "lightly" armored vehicals. Most rockets are inaccurate unless launched closer to 400. At 1500 the IL2 becomes Wirbel fodder. It's not like HiTech has PTAB in mind for the IL2 and a new Yak9B anytime soon. Disclaimer for YakB - Poor handling with a full bomb and fuel load and lack of special aiming equipment limited combat usefulness.

Could you imagine the complaints. A single engined Yak9B with 128 PTAB flies level over a Wirbel nest. "Hey!! MoMan looks like we cutting him to peices. Look at all the littel parts fal".......boom crunch boom splat boom thump boom owwwieee boom boom........Next day in the AH forums. Perk the PTAB!!!!!!. Anyone can be a tank killer----it's UNFAIR TO THE GV GAME...waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa .

Dont think a gunsight compairs to that scenario......Bet the same players would want the JU87D-5 perked to.

[Babalonian]

Here's a photo of the Curtiss Test Pilots with a P-40B, circa early 1941 at the Buffalo factory. Note that the legendary Herb Fisher is the guy squatting on the wing. P-40Bs were delivered without government purchased equipment... No guns, no sights and only a basic radio installation to safely fly the aircraft.

(Image removed from quote.)

Fantastic photo Widewing, amazing quality and clearity, thanks for sharing.  I have always been most jealous of your collection and ease of access to such vast amounts of WWII aviation information.

I also certainly can't wait to checkout the remodeled P-40E to be released soon.