A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.

[Krusty]

Roll rate nearly 2x faster than historically tested (if I recall right), some E-retention issues, especially carried over to the Hurr2C make it an ubermonster compared to historic performances.

In short: Needs to be reworked from the ground up. It dominates where it shouldn't.

[Delirium]

Very nice. You have problems killing 110Cs in spits or what?

I've done the BoB scenario both in Spits and in Bf110s and they almost exactly right. Granted, the Spit1 will easily out turn the 110, so we instead kept them fast and always made sure we had at last 6-7k beneath us. Nose down, the 110 walks away from the Spits without much difficulty. If you factor in the ability to pull neg G, it is even easier.

I feel a Bf110 with engines that have less horsepower will NOT prevent the Bf110 BnZ, but it would make it much harder (like it was in reality). If you put either Bf110 (our current model, or a slower one) in a close escort position, it will show the weaknesses it had historically. In the scenario, we blatantly ignored any such instructions and the results validated us.

[RTHolmes]

If you put either Bf110 (our current model, or a slower one) in a close escort position, it will show the weaknesses it had historically. In the scenario, we blatantly ignored any such instructions and the results validated us.

was that because the 88s were so fast that they didnt really need an escort?

[Krusty]

was that because the 88s were so fast that they didnt really need an escort?

Very possible! In FSO last week we had Dunkirk as a setup. Basically a BOB planeset. Our hurr1's came in some 10,000 ft above the bomber stream and still with our intercept and dive could only make about 3 passes before the bombers were pulling in front of us. I made 2.5 before return gunner fire (made much more effective because of the slower closure rates) killed my engine on the first hit.

Forcing bombers to historic speeds would be a step in the right direction. At least for scenarios and events and such.

[Delirium]

was that because the 88s were so fast that they didn't really need an escort?

That is another discussion entirely. I was talking about the Spit1 vs the BVf110. We didn't close escort anything, we left that for the Emils.

That said; when I flew a Spit1 in the BoB scenario, we had 2 maybe 3 passes on the bombers. Afterwards, they flew so far from us it would take 20+ minutes to re-engage them, and sometimes more if we wanted to prevent a tail chase which helped the 88s defensive fire. The Hurricanes generally had 2 passes (at best) before the bombers flew hopelessly out of range.

However, the Bf110 and bomber speeds are two completely separate arguments. Arguments that both need discussion, I will admit.

[Debrody]

was that because the 88s were so fast that they didnt really need an escort?

That too, but the close escort lacks in flexibility. Ive never liked that role. Loose escort/free hunt before the bombers usually works better.
Btw, Deliriums right, the 110 can escape from the spit, just not in level flight. Anyway, the spits a pretty much better fighter aircraft IMO. Asking it to be more über compared to its rivals...  well... we cant see it every day.

[Wmaker]

Roll rate nearly 2x faster than historically tested (if I recall right), some E-retention issues, especially carried over to the Hurr2C make it an ubermonster compared to historic performances.

In short: Needs to be reworked from the ground up. It dominates where it shouldn't.

Can you prove these "e-retention" issues for example?

Our Hurricane does 262mph on the deck. The RAF data I have seen suggests ~280mph on the deck for a new aircraft. The speed deteriorated fast in service especially on the earlier aircraft with partly fabric covered wings but that doesn't really concern AH. On the other hand, the Mk.I in AH does over 320mph at it's best alt where the same RAF data I mentioned shows ~317mph.

So the issue isn't as simple as you depict it.

And then there's a weird kink on a speed curve which hints to a 2-speed supercharger:

...Mk.I had a single speed SC.

[RTHolmes]

Ive got to say that in the BoBs ive done, although the 110s can dive away, if they stay to fight then the only problem in the spit or hurri is getting enough lead into them, as you'd expect.

[RTHolmes]

Can you prove these "e-retention" issues for example?

e-retention is practically impossible to test in AH, and theres no RW data to compare it to. the only way to know if theres something wrong is to look at the flight model, and then the implementation of that model in coad. theres 2 aircraft in AH which I doubt in terms of their modelling of e-retention, but its based on my subjective experience of fighting against them. that doesnt invalidate my doubts - I'm good at evaluating other aircrafts' e-states - but its not quantitative evidence thats needed for proof.

[Krusty]

So the issue isn't as simple as you depict it.

I wasn't trying to say it was a simple issue. That wasn't my intent.

And then there's a weird kink on a speed curve which hints to a 2-speed supercharger:
...Mk.I had a single speed SC.

Also a good point. I recall that being mentioned before but forgot it when posting my previous reply. Like I said, though, it needs a total re-do from scratch.

[Wmaker]

e-retention is practically impossible to test in AH, and theres no RW data to compare it to.

Exactly my point. That's why it's best not to throw words like that around.

[Delirium]

if they stay to fight then the only problem in the spit or hurri is getting enough lead into them, as you'd expect.

I had no problems at all with that, set the convergence very close and you'll buzz saw the wingtips off. Again, only the stupid Bf110 pilots will stay and turn fight.

[Krusty]

There are some things that don't match up to historic values. The fact that they are hard to describe, harder to test for, doesn't negate the fact they don't match up. Like having A6Ms that can follow hellcats in dives, or can zoom up 5000 ft or what have you. Or very draggy I-16s being able to dive on and stay on faster craft in chases where they ought to fall behind quickly. (these are just examples)

The hurricanes have amazing dive and zoom climb performance, coupled with no risk of stalling, very generous roll rate, and top that off with quad hizzos on the IIC, and you get a total package more than any comments or performance capabilities I've read about for the real craft.

going back to your mention of the speeds... Maybe we don't have the 100 octane? I thought we got it for the Hurr1 same time as the Spit1, but going by the following from wwiiaircraftperformance.org:



compared to:



Interesting to compare. Maybe HTC was going for 87 octane? Doesn't explain the dogleg 2nd gear on the charger, but might explain some of the rest? Also the fade-off on the IIC power curve above FTH also looks abnormal. Also interesting to note that despite different supercharger the IIC had same low-alt speeds on the deck as 100 octane Mk.IA.

[Karnak]

The Spitfire is over fragile, all marks.  The Hurri rolls about 1.5 times faster than it should.

Basically, the Bf110C-4b and Hurricane Mk I don't seem at all handicapped like the Spitfire Mk Ia and Bf109E-4 do compared to later models in their lines.

I think that had these aircraft performed like they do in AH, 1944 would have seen Griffon powered Hurricane Mk XIVs fighting Bf110K-4s.

Remember, the Bf110s got slaughtered before the close escort order was given.  That was given due to excessive bomber loses.  Only later did Bf109s get tasked with escorting the Bf110s.  I am skeptical that the Bf110 and Hurricane responded to control inputs as effectively as they do here in comparison to the Spitfire Mk Ia and Bf109E-4 and I am skeptical that the Spitfire was so massively more fragile than other fighters of its day.

The bomber speed is a whole other issue.

[Soulyss]

The Spitfire is over fragile, all marks.  The Hurri rolls about 1.5 times faster than it should.

Basically, the Bf110C-4b and Hurricane Mk I don't seem at all handicapped like the Spitfire Mk Ia and Bf109E-4 do compared to later models in their lines.

I think that had these aircraft performed like they do in AH, 1944 would have seen Griffon powered Hurricane Mk XIVs fighting Bf110K-4s.

Remember, the Bf110s got slaughtered before the close escort order was given.  That was given due to excessive bomber loses.  Only later did Bf109s get tasked with escorting the Bf110s.  I am skeptical that the Bf110 and Hurricane responded to control inputs as effectively as they do here in comparison to the Spitfire Mk Ia and Bf109E-4 and I am skeptical that the Spitfire was so massively more fragile than other fighters of its day.

The bomber speed is a whole other issue.

I thought one of the reasons the 110's suffered such high loses was BECAUSE they were tied to close escort duties and lost the initiative in combat with the RAF interceptors?  I'll admit that it's been a while since I read up on the BoB so I'll take your word to the contrary if I'm mistaken.