CAP and all you other mechanics....

[CAP1]

Driven down the road tonight, Doin the speed limit and all of a sudden I start decelerating while I had my foot on the accelerator. Thought maybe my foot took a break and I didn't realize it, put it to the wood and still no acceleration. Ok, maybe somehow it popped out of gear, hit the clutch put it in neutral and again gave it some gas to see if my rpms would rise, nothing. Ok....odd I say, next thing I know all my dummy lights come on, more odd. Then I lose pose steering. Extremely odd. Pull off to the side of the road to make sure it was still running, went to recrank it (it died), and it would turn over but wouodnt pop off. Ok, call a buddy who knows his stuff about cars who lived right around the corner from where I was, and he tried starting it. Nothing. He pops the hood and has me try it again. Heard some funky noises coming from my timing belt. Good possibility, without a timing belt im not getting the proper (if any) fuel in the right a/f mixture. Hook it to his truck and bring it back to his place where it rests right now and will rest until I get someone who can put it on a trailer and bring to my house. Assuming my timing belt is still in one piece and my timing is good what else could could cause this? Checked all my fluids and they're good, and it still cranks strong so I doubt its my alternator. Thoughts?

 what kind of car is it?

 could be lots of things. clogged cat(sounds almost like that, if it was still running when you first noticed the problem), ignition problem, fuel problem.........

[CAP1]

50k on new spark wires and plugs, not ruling that out, but I doubt its my plugs. When it gets to my house ill find my fuel pump (if it isn't in the fuel tank), and have a look at that. Its a '00 Mazda protege. Pretty much a ford escort or something with mazda goodies.

 aahh.......protege. 1.9 liter? mazda engines are interference engines. means that if the belt did break, you've got bent valves.

 the fuel pump is in the tank. i can't remember if these have an inertia switch. it should be in the trunk, on one of the side panels, if it has one. check that too.

[CAP1]

A question here. Did you hear any crunching or banging sounds when the car lost power? That is what would happen if the timing belt / chain failed. It would be the valve train being destroyed by the pistons in those cylinders where the valves stopped in the down position.

If it just died with no "bad" noises it is in one of three areas, electrical short, fuel or ignition. That means no spark or no gas getting to the combustion chambers.

Since it did turn over the battery didn't short out breaking the ignition circuit.

Losing the fuel pump would shut you down just as fast as if you turned off the key, assuming you have fuel injection. It would also do the same if the filter got fully clogged or if you got a bit of water in the last fill up. get a pressure gage, put it in the fuel line and check for fuel pressure when you turn the key on and when cranking. No fuel pressure, you have narrowed it down to one system.

Ignition is just removing the spark. You can check it by pulling a plug, hooking the wire back up to it and turning the motor over. If the plug sparks the ignition is good. They almost never lose timing anymore like the old points style distributor.

 actually, when a timing belt breaks, you'll hear that loud silence, since the shutdown is almost instant.

[dedalos]

Driven down the road tonight, Doin the speed limit and all of a sudden I start decelerating while I had my foot on the accelerator. Thought maybe my foot took a break and I didn't realize it, put it to the wood and still no acceleration. Ok, maybe somehow it popped out of gear, hit the clutch put it in neutral and again gave it some gas to see if my rpms would rise, nothing. Ok....odd I say, next thing I know all my dummy lights come on, more odd. Then I lose pose steering. Extremely odd. Pull off to the side of the road to make sure it was still running, went to recrank it (it died), and it would turn over but wouodnt pop off. Ok, call a buddy who knows his stuff about cars who lived right around the corner from where I was, and he tried starting it. Nothing. He pops the hood and has me try it again. Heard some funky noises coming from my timing belt. Good possibility, without a timing belt im not getting the proper (if any) fuel in the right a/f mixture. Hook it to his truck and bring it back to his place where it rests right now and will rest until I get someone who can put it on a trailer and bring to my house. Assuming my timing belt is still in one piece and my timing is good what else could could cause this? Checked all my fluids and they're good, and it still cranks strong so I doubt its my alternator. Thoughts?

I am not an expert but those are the sure signs of a UFO encounter.  I would check my watch if I were you.  See if it running behind.  Also, look for any strange marks on your body that you did not have before.  There is a good chance you were abducted by aliens  

[CAP1]

It looks like the '00 Protege came with either a 1.6 or a 1.8 Liter engine, NEITHER OF WHICH IS AN INTERFERENCE ENGINE!

This is a good thing meaning that you can throw on a timing belt and that should take care of things as further engine damage shouldn't have occurred.  There are exceptions to this rule however - such as if you had a camshaft lock up or break, or a waterpump seize or another internal problem that caused the timing belt to break.

When the timing covers are off it's a good idea to check each pulley for play, noise and roughness.  It's generally good practice to replace the timing belt itself, its tensioner, any idler pulleys for the timing belt and the water pump while it's all apart.

 ya know? i just ran out and looked it up in my book.....you're right. non-interference.  looks like a rather easy belt to do too........if it is broken, probably less than $300.

[morfiend]

 MasonZ,


  turn key on,listen for fuel pump,this is a common problem to Protege's and escorts for that matter. Lucky for you it's a non-interference motor and if it's a timming belt it's not as bad as if it was say a honda or toyota.
 As someone else said check for spark and fuel if you have both then look at timming belt,you could pull the valve cover off and see if the belt is still there,if it is you could bump the engine and see if it turns or just unraveles....  to bump the engine just hit the starter for a second,best to have a helper so you can watch whats going on.



  hope that helps,the protege's are pretty good cars but they do have some issues.



      

[Tigger29]

thing is a money pit... bought it for $4000 cash money, and after reapirs (including my brothers deal on the front end a month ago) ive put almost 8,000 into it. for the 12k ive spent on it i could have had a damn fine running car....

I don't know the repair history for this vehicle but you need to understand that the timing belt is made of a rubber compound and as a result needs to be replaced every once in awhile as regular maintenance.  Timing belts are usually recommended between 60,000 and 100,000 miles (depending on the vehicle) for this exact reason.  Since these often cost several hundred dollars to do many people neglect this and then it breaks.

I wouldn't automatically dismiss the vehicle as a lemon because a part that was supposed to be replaced wasn't and broke as a result.

[CAP1]

I don't know the repair history for this vehicle but you need to understand that the timing belt is made of a rubber compound and as a result needs to be replaced every once in awhile as regular maintenance.  Timing belts are usually recommended between 60,000 and 100,000 miles (depending on the vehicle) for this exact reason.  Since these often cost several hundred dollars to do many people neglect this and then it breaks.

I wouldn't automatically dismiss the vehicle as a lemon because a part that was supposed to be replaced wasn't and broke as a result.

'specially on audis. ever done one? i got one in the parking lot. the head just came back from the machine shop. it is the first timing belt i've done on one of these wrecks. it is also the last. it is not worth the money that the job pays, for the hassle it is to do.

[Tigger29]

MasonZ,


  turn key on,listen for fuel pump,this is a common problem to Protege's and escorts for that matter. Lucky for you it's a non-interference motor and if it's a timming belt it's not as bad as if it was say a honda or toyota.
 As someone else said check for spark and fuel if you have both then look at timming belt,you could pull the valve cover off and see if the belt is still there,if it is you could bump the engine and see if it turns or just unraveles....  to bump the engine just hit the starter for a second,best to have a helper so you can watch whats going on.



  hope that helps,the protege's are pretty good cars but they do have some issues.



      

Really?  It's common for fuel pumps to fail on Escorts and Mazdas?  I'm a master tech with almost 20 years of experience and I can count on two hands the number of Escort fuel pumps I've done (all but one or two of which were on 1990 and older models) and I can't even count the number of Mazda pumps I've done because I don't recall ever doing any!

But otherwise your advice is sound.  Remove the oil cap and see if you see the cams move while cranking the engine.  If you can't see from there then you can remove the valve cover or remove the top section of the timing cover to see if things are rotating.  If not then the timing belt is at fault.

As far as fuel you can remove the fuel cap and put your ear up to the fuel filler neck while someone else turns the key to ON (NOT start).  You should hear a quiet whine or buzz for about a second or two.  If you hear this then there's a really good chance the fuel pump is just fine.

[Tigger29]

'specially on audis. ever done one? i got one in the parking lot. the head just came back from the machine shop. it is the first timing belt i've done on one of these wrecks. it is also the last. it is not worth the money that the job pays, for the hassle it is to do.

Yes they are no fun.  Luckily I'm blessed with living in an area where VW/Audi vehicles are extremely rare.  This is a big Toyota, Honda, and Ford town!

[dedalos]

I still think it was a UFO

[morfiend]

 Tigger,

 I live in Canada so our fuels are different up here,this I suspect is the reason you dont see pumps going as often. Likewise with honda transmissions,I bet you see more failure down in the southern states than we do up here.

 Seems around the 120000 KM mark or so,about 70 thou it's common to have fuel pump failures here,the difference in the gas is my guess for that.




  

 PS: up here most cars rot away before the engines die!!!

[Tigger29]

Tigger,

 I live in Canada so our fuels are different up here,this I suspect is the reason you dont see pumps going as often. Likewise with honda transmissions,I bet you see more failure down in the southern states than we do up here.

 Seems around the 120000 KM mark or so,about 70 thou it's common to have fuel pump failures here,the difference in the gas is my guess for that.




  

 PS: up here most cars rot away before the engines die!!!

Ahh I did not know that you were up north!  I didn't mean for what I said to sound like it did I just thought you were relaying some misleading information.  Don't get me wrong we do get a lot of fuel pump failures here but the vast majority of them are GM and Ford vehicles (I should say Ford designed vehicles) and Mazdas would be at the very bottom of the list as far as that goes.

I've been told that liquid is liquid and the fuel quality is going to have very little to do with fuel pump life - BUT I have a feeling that extreme cold temperatures may have a bit to do with that as well where you're from!

Anyway I apologize if I came off as harsh.  I really should start saying these things out loud before I click on POST. <S>

[MaSonZ]

CAP, you posted and im all of a sudden getting an edumacation on how to do things  

in all seriousness, ill see ifi can get a see at my valves moving when i take off the cap, otherwise ill put in my new headstuds after i take the cover off (still have a broken one frrom a few months back. had no time, nor the tools to bore out the bolt holes [got some ARP head studs, all that were availble] and put them in. now is my excuse....  )

my dad seems to think it could be my fuel pump, so ill have a buddy bring me over or my dad have a listen when i turn the key to ON.

irregardless of the issue, im not overly thrilled about it. hard to get to work, school and EMT class with no car  

[morfiend]

 Tigger,

 No worries I wasnt upset but thought I'd qualify my statement.  The protege is a ford/mazda design.....    Oh no here we go again.


  FWIW,I think condensation is the culprit and maybe the additives used here,you build up alot of water in the tank during the winter. The resulting slury of water, fuel and rust tend to be hard on electric fuel pumps.