AXIS Frame 01 AAR

[ImADot]

So it seems the issue has turned into interpretation of the rules and throwing all one's assets at the objectives. As I was out of town and unable to attend, I'm only going by what I've read. It sounds like all objectives were met, with squads tasked to attack the targets by T+60. What appears to be the heart of the debate is holding one squad in reserve for cleanup. Sound about right?

[Bannor]

Copy that AKP.

I read your other post and your point was well taken. I agree with you on how we can do this already with the current set-up prior to T+60. This will also depend on what scenario we are running with distance/fuel, # of targets to defend/attack, and how many squads we have available.

And then there is the use of bombers in a crowded target environment. I know it's frowned apon to hit more than one target in a tight space. I feel this gives a huge advantage to the defender because the bombers may be attacked going into their target, trying to calibrate and drop and then trying to make a turn and drop again, while traveling into another attack zone and getting hit from a different set of defenders. Not the easiest thing in the world to do. I understand the intent of not rolling massive bomber formations onto multiple targets. However, if this was real, I would want to keep my bombers going full speed away from the primary target to drop on a secondary target so that they could egress at full speed instead of turning back into the bees nest.

I know that we cannot satisfy all our wants and perfection can never be achieved. We make the best of what we are given. I think the CM's are doing a bang-up job   and I am thrilled to be a part of FSO.   And every once in awhile.....  Good times! See ya on Friday! 

[Bannor]

So it seems the issue has turned into interpretation of the rules and throwing all one's assets at the objectives. As I was out of town and unable to attend, I'm only going by what I've read. It sounds like all objectives were met, with squads tasked to attack the targets by T+60. What appears to be the heart of the debate is holding one squad in reserve for cleanup. Sound about right?

I think so, for the most part. In part of the timeing (T+60) and assignment of squads to specific fields.

[SIK1]

I had fun. I'm flying with Kommando Nowotny this FSO

I think it's the first time I've ever survived the entire frame. I had some fun fights, unfortunately no kills, not even an assist.

I guess I'll have to start a "I pinged him and he didn't have the honor to die." thread.   

[Viper61]

To all of you above that have read Squires comments and replied in here I appreciate that. <S>

Squire:

  Not fair for you to post that I was "getting around the rules" or typing that I "sent in a token force".  Very plainly the Special Rule for this scenario read that a credible attacking force must include at least 20 AC (normally its less).  I meant that requirement in the planning.  My comments to you state that clearly and Cpt A's AAR of one of the target confirms that.  I can assure you the other targets plan and squads were identical except they had a little better luck at their target.

  Your "recommended change" to the Main FSO Rule on striking targets are not needed.  All you have to do is adjust the special rule within this scenario and lift the attacking force number from +20 to whatever you wish.  Do the math and figure out exactly how you want the battle to play out and you'll impose your will.  I would recommend caution however as you will get push back from nearly every squad CO in here if you start scripting the scenario's so tightly that the outcome is clearly seen before it begins.  The FSO is special because it isn't scripted like other AHII events and CO can plan their own missions.

  At the Targets:  At both targets the ALLIED Defenders were still in place and operating at altitude over their defensive areas during the late frame strike (H+80 ish).  At Sarrbucker we lost 2 X Ar 234's to a Spit operating at 30K and over Antwurp 1 X Ar 234 took damage from a P-51 operating at 29K.  So this should clarify that the target areas were still defended and we took loss's.  So there shouldn't be any issue from the ALLIED side.

  Also your initial interpretation of the "Why" behind the H+60 rule isn't exactly correct or as you typed.  It was put there to "Ensure" that every squad saw at least some action in the first 60 minutes.  Nothing more.  Its a game and the intent was to make it fun because at the time long ago squads were complaining about low turnouts because they would fly around and not see any action all night.  The H+60 rule forced initial engagements so that all squads were guaranteed to see some action and to that end it was worked just as intended.

[Squire]

Not fair for you to post that I was "getting around the rules" or typing that I "sent in a token force".

Viper...its my job to bring to light violations of the rules if I see thats happened.  I did not accuse you of cheating or state anything rude or outrageous. FSO has rules and from time to time folks might stray over them. Accidentaly, through misunderstanding, sometimes...(not in your case) deliberate. If I think its worthy of a post I post <shrug>.  Its not personel.

Your "recommended change" to the Main FSO Rule on striking targets are not needed.

Well I disagree. From reading some of the replies there may very well be a need for it. Im not going to rush into it I want to have a close look at the whole thing first.

At the Targets:  At both targets the ALLIED Defenders were still in place and operating at altitude over their defensive areas during the late frame strike (H+80 ish).
 

Thats not the point and I did not imply that somehow the frame was ruined as a result of the late Arados. It was having them arrive past T+60.

Also your initial interpretation of the "Why" behind the H+60 rule isn't exactly correct or as you typed.  It was put there to "Ensure" that every squad saw at least some action in the first 60 minutes

Thats your interpretation of it. Its not mine. There are a variety of reasons the rule is in place. The reason you stated there is but one. 

CiC duty is a lot of work (I did plenty in my day so I know of what I speak)...and any player taking up the reins should be commended for it. So  on that and don't sweat it past that. Frame 1 was an absolute success as I see it, it had a few hiccups that needed clarifying, thats all. Nobody is being sent to the gallows. FSO will survive, the sun will rise tommorow. 

[TUK]

Not really much for you guys to get (tied in a knot) about.  I can remember back years ago on my second CiC duty.  (High Blue Battle).
I sent one big wave of heavy juggs to hit 2 targets.  Thus, creating the (can't send squads to hit 2 targets rule).  My set of detailed orders have been since then listed on the website as (what not to do). No sweat.
I am proud that I pushed the limits of the fso rules, and  I may have pushed the buttons of a few cm's, (example-Sled,Daddog) but the rules, and designers rules, of each fso are learned from mistakes sometimes.  
Just relax guys. You will laugh about this one day.....  

[Viper61]

Squire, I've been out for a few days...

I do apologize in my comments above.  When I read all of the above threads prior to my response I confused your comments and APDrones.  Most of my comments should have been addressed to APDrone.

We still differ on the rule change issue.  But I wanted to apologize when I am wrong.   

[APDrone]

I must apologize for my post, Viper.. I feel I may have come across rather harsh.  I've known you from way back when I was still CMing and I know you weren't being malicious.

Normally I'd delete the post before I made it, but this time I went ahead and let it go. whoops.

I gotta admit, it mostly came from frustration.  I didn't expect to be able to attend, and when I was able to make it, I was unprepared for the exact matchup we had in place.  So ultimately manning a P38 to defend against AR234s wasn't what I was expecting..   And that was after my flight of 2 38s encountered a flock of Doras at 25k.. which led me to immediately compress down to 10k on my first maneuver.  Ug.. stooooopid stuff.    My fault for not being prepared and then venting.

Still.. as far as the T+60 goes.. and this probably needs to go in the other threads as well..   I used to be a big fan of the premise of sending enough of a strike to satisfy the minimum requirements ( which, I coulda swore, defined a 'squad strength' as 12 planes ) with a followup 'cleanup' crew after the T+60, also.

But, at some point in my journey, it occurred to me what the concept of T+60 was all about.  And I'll lay it out here.

Each target is to be attacked by a credible force by T+60.

So.. exactly what is a target?

If you're attacking a base, city, fleet, the target is something that you are responsible for reaching by T+60.  If a credible force fails to reach the target by that time, you are penalized.

Conversely.. if you are defending such a target, YOUR target is the force that is attacking what you're defending.  In this case, the defenders must also attack their target with a credible force within T+60.  This time, however, the defenders cannot be held accountable for their targets to arrive by the designated time.  It is up to the targets, themselves, to be sure they arrive at their destination in time.

So.. in reality, each of those AR234s were targets, themselves, and by not reaching their target, they prevented the defenders from satisfying the T+60 rule.

Now, I'm not saying that all ordnance must be dropped by T+60.. I'm just pointing out that each participant must have reached their assigned target area by T+60.  It makes no difference if that target was assigned before the frame began or at T+59, or any point of time in between. 

I think I explained it well enough.. though I would understand if it caused somebody to have a headache, somewhere.

And on a 'purist' note.. I don't believe city targets should be hit by JABO attacks ( the true irony of this will play out in the next 36 hours ).  Jabo attacks should be on bases, ports, and fleets.  Cities and strats should be attacked by multi-engine med-heavy level bombers.    But that's my opinion and, of course, I will adhere to the judgements of those in command.

Again, Viper.. I'm sorry if I came across as harsh.  That was wrong of me.