Author Topic: P-63 Kingcobra  (Read 3968 times)

Offline Brooke

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2011, 06:26:49 PM »
Reading The Lockheed P-38 Lightning, by Bodie (an *awesome* book -- wish there was one of that caliber on every WWII aircraft), Bodie talks about what the P-39 might have been like had it received the sort of support from the army project managers that the P-38 did (instead of being hampered).

It was a very-innovative design, and we see lots of excellent qualities in AH, I think.  For it's day (introduced in 1941, I think) and below about 13k, it's fast.  It handles well, even at high speed, turns decently, and is a very small target.

The Russians loved the P-39, and used it as an air-to-air fighter (as detailed in Attack of the Airacobras, by Loza).  Three of the top five aces of the Soviets flew the P-39.

Offline Vinkman

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2011, 08:23:55 PM »
Reading The Lockheed P-38 Lightning, by Bodie (an *awesome* book -- wish there was one of that caliber on every WWII aircraft), Bodie talks about what the P-39 might have been like had it received the sort of support from the army project managers that the P-38 did (instead of being hampered).

It was a very-innovative design, and we see lots of excellent qualities in AH, I think.  For it's day (introduced in 1941, I think) and below about 13k, it's fast.  It handles well, even at high speed, turns decently, and is a very small target.

The Russians loved the P-39, and used it as an air-to-air fighter (as detailed in Attack of the Airacobras, by Loza).  Three of the top five aces of the Soviets flew the P-39.

 :aok
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2011, 10:22:40 PM »
:aok

We need the 63 just so Vinkman stops getting so cranky in the MA :)

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Offline Vinkman

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2011, 10:53:36 PM »
We need the 63 just so Vinkman stops getting so cranky in the MA :)



It's true. I would be happy all the time.  :banana:
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Offline Raptor05121

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2011, 11:21:29 PM »
I;d be cherry for a P-63.....once my B-26 gets reskinned
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Offline Vinkman

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2011, 09:02:24 AM »
P-63 should have been in the poll.  :salute
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Offline Raptor05121

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2011, 09:28:58 AM »
P-63 should have been in the poll.  :salute

Maybe next time.
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Offline alpini13

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2011, 12:14:45 PM »
ok so let me get this straight...P-63.made in quantity greater than p-47m,saw limited combat like the P-47m,was used by the usa and russia in 1944/45   and we have the p-47-m and not the p-63......somehow that dosent make sense. wish the p-63 was in the poll

Offline Krusty

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2011, 12:39:42 PM »
And exactly what service did the P-63 see with US forces?


Oh, and while we're at it, how about how much action it saw with Soviet forces?

It was made in great numbers, to be sure. Its impact on the war was nonexistent. It has no cultural importance (as compared to the P-39 which was significant for both the US and the VVS), and fired almost no shots in anger.

Then compare it to the P-47M which swept the skies over France and Germany....


<sarcasm>Yeah, that's REALLY a valid comparison.</sarcasm>

Offline Vinkman

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2011, 12:52:18 PM »
And exactly what service did the P-63 see with US forces?


Oh, and while we're at it, how about how much action it saw with Soviet forces?

It was made in great numbers, to be sure. Its impact on the war was nonexistent. It has no cultural importance (as compared to the P-39 which was significant for both the US and the VVS), and fired almost no shots in anger.

Then compare it to the P-47M which swept the skies over France and Germany....


<sarcasm>Yeah, that's REALLY a valid comparison.</sarcasm>


OK ok, he doesn't know all the P-63 history. You don't have to do so rough on him.  :salute


The case for the P-63 in Aces High

While the single seat, single engine, liquid cooled V-12s were the premier fighters for Great Britain, Germany, and Italy, The U.S. Struggled to compete with its V-12 powered offerings at the outset of the war in Europe. The biggest factor in that struggle was the Allison 1710, the only V-12 available to American Manufacturers, which in 1941 was under developed, and underpowered. North American Aviation made the decision to abandon Allison for the British developed Merlin, hence the most successful V-12 powered American Fighter of the war, the Mustang, can't be considered all American from a design and engineering stand point. The Bell P-63 Kingcobra was the last and best attempt by American engineers to develop a single seat, single engine, V-12 powered fighter.   
The second generation of Bell's mid-engine single seat fighter concept, the Kingcobra, possessed impressive performance numbers:
 
Climb Rate [ref 1]
0 ft                  5000 ft                 10,000ft               15,000 ft                20,000 ft               25,000 ft                 30,000 ft
3.67k ft/min   3.73k ft/min   3.7k ft/min   3.55k ft/min   3.27k ft/min   2.6k ft/min   1.96k ft/min

Top Speed * [ref 2]
                               P-63A-1   P-47D-20               P-38J-15    P-51B-5
War Emergency Power   60"/3000 rpm   56"/2700 rpm   60"/3000 rpm   67"/3000 rpm
Speed @ 10,000 ft                  372                   367                     383                     395
Speed @ 20,000 ft                  397                   401                     414                     411
Speed @ 25,000 ft                  397                   414                     420                     424
Speed @ 30,000 ft           389                   423                     417                     433
*note: This data was for these planes tested during the same flight test. As such its relative values are accurate, but actual values may differ from other flight test results. The P-63A with WEP rating of 1325 HP. The C' model P-63 could run with 80" of manifold pressure, producing 1800 HP. No top speed test data for C' model found to date. [ref 3]

Roll Rate  & Turn performance.
I'm still searching for a source of the objective numbers, which are not quoted in Matthews book, but this  quote from the NACA test results in [ref 4]: "the maximum rate of roll possible with full aileron deflection is exceeded by few current planes for which comparable data are available.", indicated the roll rate was excellent. Similarly, but much less objectively, these excerpts give an indication of turn performance. "With respect to maneuverability, the Kingcobra received high marks from the Air Force. The Kingcobra also consistently turned tighter circles than the other three fighters [P-51B-5, P-38J-15, P-47D-20]. In dives tests the Kingcobra had a slight advantage over the P-38. In full power dives the P-47 and the P-51 showed a marked advantage over the P-63. When subjected to zoom tests at full power, the Kingcobra was better than the P-47 and the P-38. [ref 5]
 
Great climb rate, excellent roll rate, good turn performance, good top speed, so why was the Kingcobra pass up by the U.S. Army?
In Europe the fighter mission had become a very specialized version of the air superiority role, consisting of very long range fighter sweeps. The qualities preferred were a large combat radius, and top speed, and a gun package ideal for killing fast maneuverable fighter aircraft. The P-63 is a poor match to the Mustang in combat radius, and its gun package has only two or four .50 caliber machine guns for the anti-fighter roll. The 37mm with 58 rounds, was a less than ideal weapon against evasive, agile fighters. The Mustang was better suited to the specific mission the Army was most interested in, in late 1943. Coupled with the need to provide planes to the Russians, and the Russians familiarity with Bell aircraft and the mid-engine layout of the Bell fighters, the decision to send the P-63 to the Russians, was a practical, and logical one, more than it was proof of a lack capability on the part of the P-63. On paper the P-63 seems to have a different attribute mix than the Mustang. When assessed versus the full variety of missions that play out in the MA, the P-63 would be better than the Mustang in the anti-bomber roll, ground attack, and it's better maneuverability but less than ideal gun package would make for a fun dog fighter, similar to the 109-K4
AP ammo might make it a good tank buster, but the game would employ Russian designation P-63s and they were not issues AP rounds [ref 6]
One of the great parts about Aces High is the ability to assess all the planes against each other in a variety of roles. Some of those roles will be outside of  how  they earned their reputations during the war. Messerschmitts dog fighting Zeros, Spitfires vs Corsairs. P-51s attacking large bomber formations instead of defending them.  In such matchups the Aces High players get a unique opportunity to judge whether the reputations of these planes outpaces their actual ability, or perhaps in the case of the P-63, whether the reputation as a sub-par aircraft is a complete misunderstanding of the facts surrounding its deployment to the eastern front.   

The case for the P-63 in Aces High II is to see for ourselves if the last and best attempt by American engineers to develop a single seat, single engine, V-12 powered fighter was just another weapons system footnote as many are lead to believe, or an under appreciated hidden jewel in the arsenal of democracy. Aces High would be the perfect laboratory to prove what Allison and Bell were truly capable of  after they were given sufficient time and resources to develop their concepts to their full potential.

[ref1. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 188]
[ref2. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 188]
[ref3. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 395]
[ref4. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 200]
[ref5. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 194]
[ref6. Attack of the Airacobras, Dimity Loza p. needed]

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Offline Karnak

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2011, 03:18:38 PM »
P-63 should have been in the poll.  :salute
Absolutely not.  It would have completely invalidated the point of a poll.  If either the P-61 or P-63 had been on the poll, HTC would have been better off saving themselves the trouble of the poll and just added the American unit.

ok so let me get this straight...P-63.made in quantity greater than p-47m,saw limited combat like the P-47m,was used by the usa and russia in 1944/45   and we have the p-47-m and not the p-63......somehow that dosent make sense. wish the p-63 was in the poll
Easy to explain.  The P-47M uses exactly the same 3D model as the P-47D-40 where the P-63 would be a 100% new 3D model.  Also, the P-47M saw much more combat, particularly that nobody has been able to provide confirmation that the P-63 saw any combat at all.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2011, 03:19:31 PM »
Sorry if I was harsh.

I get that there exists a case for including it in AH, I just think it's a bit of a weak case. It's what can only be classified as an uber plane that really has almost no war record at all. It falls in line with the F8F and F7F, the Do335, etc... The only difference is that it came earlier than end-of-the-war.

Offline Vinkman

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2011, 04:21:49 PM »
Sorry if I was harsh.

I get that there exists a case for including it in AH, I just think it's a bit of a weak case. It's what can only be classified as an uber plane that really has almost no war record at all. It falls in line with the F8F and F7F, the Do335, etc... The only difference is that it came earlier than end-of-the-war.

I don't dissagree. It depends on what are the reasons for adding any plane. You and Karnak seem to strongly prefer historical impact as the decider. That's logical. But most, and I'm in this camp, want to see what it's like to fly all of these birds and compare how they stack up to each other, and then I want birds that are fun to fly.

Uber is not fun - because there is no challenge in flying around in a superplane and killing everyone.
Completely sucky is not fun. - because a plane with no strengths to capitalize on means your flying a death trap with no options.

The fun planes are the ones with weakness and strengths. This forces one to devise strategies, and talents the create opportunities for the strengths, while trying to avoid situations that allow the enemy to exploit it weaknesses. 

The P-63 looks to have a great combination of strengths and weaknesses which I think would make a really fun plane to fly. The p-39 gets a lot more flight time than it's performance numbers and kill ratio would justify. Why? Because it's fun! That stupid huge cannon in the nose is a complete frustration and a total blast to use all at the same time. But it's so slow and underpowered, and doesn't turn well enough to make up for that lack of power that it's just not competitive in most MA arenas.  50mph more, a little better climb, and a little better turn performance make the P-63 just the upgrade a P-39 needs to be a real keeper in the LW MA.  I think this plane would end up being a significant presence in the MA, like the K4 is. Not perked or low eny plane, but it would develop a loyal following and become a permanant fixture in the MA skies.

A really fun new option that doesn't change the overall ballance of game play, but gives it more depth.  That's my reason for wanting it.  :aok

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Offline IronDog

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2011, 02:22:33 PM »
John Bagley who lives a few miles East of me in Rexburg Idaho,owns a P-63.He also has a stable of WWII,Korea,and Vietnam "War Birds",including "Ole Yeller",a P-51.I have seen him fly both of them in airshows,and the P-51 makes the P-63 look bad!He might just be afraid to open the P-63 up,or he is more comfortable with the "Pony".That being said I still like the P-63.It's history is interesting,with it's most notable use,was being used as a target plane.It had sensors wires installed,and the opponents fired wax bullets at it.I believe it did get a couple of kills in Manchuria during August of 1945.
I wouldn't have any problem with having the P-63 in AH,as we have a rocket plane that flies way longer and more deftly than it really was capable of.It killed more of the pilots that flew it in accidents than the enemy did!Might as well add the "Black Widow",and the "Bearcat",that would make a lot of people happy.

Offline Karnak

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Re: P-63 Kingcobra
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2011, 10:55:49 PM »
The P-61 Black Widow will hopefully be added someday.  The F8F Bearcat has no place in AH, in my opinion.
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