Author Topic: Why did the P-40 lag behind?  (Read 2745 times)

Offline Ashley Pomeroy

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Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« on: October 26, 2011, 12:31:50 PM »
Now, there's an old saying that "if it looks right, it'll fly right", and to my eyes the P-40 always looked right. Not just the shark mouth, but the sleek lines and the pointy prop spinner, although I admit the undercarriage could have done with some work. Nonetheless it looked like a modern, high-performance monoplane fighter, but all the way throughout the war its performance lagged behind its contemporaries, less so as time went on but still enough to tarnish its historical reputation. I understand that earlier versions had a limited supercharger that neutralised its high-altitude performance, but even when fitted with Merlin engines and lightened the aircraft always seemed to be a few dozen MPH slower than the competion, a thousand feet per minute less sprightly. Having said that, it's impressive that a design dating back to the days of the Hawker Hurricane was still getting kills in 1945,* and it seems to have defenders, not least because it has always been kicked around like Richard Nixon.

So, was the P-40 doomed by a fundamental, insurmountable design problem - perhaps an aerodynamic deficiency - or was it just limited by a combination of things that individually might have been debugged, but collectively held it back? Was there enough horsepower in Christendom to make it a worldbeater, or could it have been tidied up aerodynamically, a la the Bf-109F? I surmise that the scoop didn't help, but other, faster aircraft also had large chin-mounted scoops (the Typhoon springs to mind, although the Tiffie had considerably more horsepower). The P-40Q turned it into something almost but not quite as good as a contemporary P-51, by essentially replacing everything except the cockpit seat, but by that time the P-51 existed, and so the P-40Q was abandoned.

This intrigues me because, in most other cases, I can see why other early war fighters couldn't keep pace with technological developments. The Zero relied too much on light weight and a big wing for its performance, and when the aircraft was fitted with armour and self-sealing tanks it was no longer lightweight, and the big wing held back its top speed; the Hurricane's frame construction meant that it was just too heavy, with a thick wing; the 109 was too small to contain the equipment it needed to perform a relevant role as the war progressed without modifying the structure to such an extent that it was no longer sleek, which necessitated a larger, heavier, more powerful, torquier engine that taxed the landing gear and the wings, thus creating a kind of negative feedback loop, etc. In contrast the P-40 was at least capable of great speed in 1940, in a dive, and the basic design looked good.

Reading up on its history I get the impression that the earlier YP-37 - a long-nosed P-36 mod based on a turbo-supercharged Allison V-1710 - would have been a wiser long-term choice, but I'm sure they had their reasons for cancelling it, not just the awful cockpit view.

* Which seems to be about a year longer than the Hurricane itself (the last confirmed Hurricane kills I have read about were in 1944).

Offline Krusty

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2011, 12:35:41 PM »
If you look at other designs that were made early and continued into the war, you see actual development, either in shape, wing, or massive bosts in power.

The P-40 simply used the same design. 1930s designs were not very efficient. My personal opinion is the drag. Even when they put more powerful engines with noticably more horsepower and WEP settings, it only gained a small number of mph boost. I think it was just issues with the design. Look at even an "efficient" aerodynamic radial, like a Fw190, and you can add tons of horsepower and only get marginal speed increases.


P.S. The only reason the P-40 served longer than the Hurricane was there was greater need in the PTO than in Europe. The hurricanse could be retired or replaced, but the P-40s (while outclassed by newer designs) simply were the best thing in a given area at a given time. What are they going to do? Not go up? Surely not! So they kept flying even after production was halted. It happens.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 12:37:33 PM by Krusty »

Offline Sikboy

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2011, 01:07:48 PM »
I'd say that the P-40 lagged behind for two main reasons:
1. The lack of a two stage supercharger in the initial offerings, which casued a perofrmance hit that really screwed with it.
2. The development of the P-51 overtook the need to continue tweaking the P-40.

You mention the P-40Q which really drove the point home I think: You could get great performance out of a P-40 by taking all the best parts of the P-51 and applying them to the airframe. But by then, why bother since you already have P-51's coming off the line?

In essence, I think you pretty much answered your own question :)

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« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 01:09:41 PM by Sikboy »
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2011, 01:29:28 PM »
I have to disagree with you on its looks.  It does not look like a modern (for 1940) high performance fighter.  It looks like something stuck with design methods of the prior generation being forced to into the current generation.  The Hurricane and Bf110, to my eyes, share that.

It has a massive, draggy air scoop under the nose, the shape is not clean, the landing gear arrangement is awkward and drag inducing.  It looks outdated.  Mean and ready to go at it, but outdated.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2011, 02:14:46 PM »
Mean and ready to go at it, but outdated.

Well put. I think that's part of the charm, but I agree that's the flaw in the design. It just came before they learned a lot about aircraft design.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2011, 02:16:04 PM »
The Allison had a two stage supercharger. What it did not have was a two speed supercharger. That is what limits operational altitude range. With a single speed, you have to choose a drive ratio for a particular altitude, which is almost always less than 15,000 feet.

Had the Allison been equipped with a two speed supercharger, it would have maintained sea level horsepower to a much higher altitude.

The other limiting factor would be the Curtiss propeller. The Curtiss propeller was both unreliable and inefficient.

Equip one of the lighter P-40 airframes with one of the late Allison engines, with a two speed supercharger, and add to that a four blade Hamilton Standard high activity paddle prop, and you have an entirely different aircraft.
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Offline paulieb

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2011, 10:43:29 PM »
Considering that some P-40 models were Packard Merlin equipped (and some say the Packard version was superior to the RR, but I have no idea), I wonder what might have been if the late war versions had been equipped with a license built version of the Rolls Royce Griffon. The airframe was certainly drag limited in terms of top speed, but just think what that would have done for climb performance and the plane's energy retention. This plane was already formidable when flown to its strengths, as evidenced by the AVG. In game at least, it's a diving fool and has excellent roll rate.

I love the P-40 as much (maybe more) than just about anyone around here, but even I have to say that even a brick will fly if you throw enough power at it.

While it was an essentially obsolete design, I believe that if you threw a 2035 horsepower Griffon 61 at it (like in the Spit XIV) you would have had a very formidable aircraft. It likely would not have excelled at any one thing, but it would have been even more beloved by the pilots that flew it. It still would have had roll rate (albeit in the opposite direction due to the Griffon's reverse rotation) and dive speed, but now with climb rate and ungodly e-building ability. Couple that with the plane's ability to withstand tremendous punishment, and you have a plane that wasn't fabulous at anything, but pretty good at EVERYTHING.

Again, strictly my opinion.... unless anyone has a P-40K and a Griffon 61 and is willing to put the 2 together and test the theory....   :salute

Offline Krusty

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2011, 09:54:42 AM »
The XP-40Q tried to redesign the airframe to be competitive... They changed the wing design, the front scoop aerodynamics, the tail was chopped down and a bubble canopy in place. It was longer, thinner, and basically was nothing like a P-40 at all. It only barely made it up to the range of contemporary fighters already winning the war, so production was never ordered. That to me says that they had to redesign the airframe to get better performance. To me that says it's the drag, the airframe itself, and just the early-era design that limits the P-40s in general.

My opinion.

Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2011, 12:49:29 PM »
Range.

Could it get to Berlin and back?

Anything else was just gravy.




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Offline Krusty

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2011, 01:01:18 PM »
Meh.. I don't think range was the issue... It had to be able to kill the enemy *at* that range. Hence the race for speed, alt, climb, etc.

Offline EagleDNY

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2011, 02:33:06 PM »
I always tended to think of the P40 as the F16 of its day - a fighter designed to US requirements, but something that was also designed for the export market.  The P40s were easy to maintain, and could be broken up and shipped out easily for assembly on site.  They DID have decent performance and met the requirements they thought they needed pre-war -  you got hi 300s speed, decent performance up to 15K or so, in a tough bird that had very few vices.  It says a lot that they made 13K+ P40s - it might not be the top fighter performance-wise, but it was easy to make and useful when employed correctly. 

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2011, 02:49:29 PM »
how come none of you guys mentioned the fact that weight continued to be added with every increase in engine power? in some cases, not all, if additional weight had not been added at the time the engine performance increased, overall aircraft performance wouldn't have been quite so marginal or worse than the previous version.

the performance as an air superiority fighter was dismal, and even worse as an interceptor (except against early japanese aircraft), but for a short range multi-role support airplane it wasn't bad.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2011, 03:24:33 PM »
how come none of you guys mentioned the fact that weight continued to be added with every increase in engine power? in some cases, not all, if additional weight had not been added at the time the engine performance increased, overall aircraft performance wouldn't have been quite so marginal or worse than the previous version.

Gyrene, even the most stripped down and weight-shaved P-40, the P-40L where they removed 30 gallons of fuel 2 guns and 1/3 the ammo from the remaining guns (200rpg only), gained a mere 4mph. And then it was so ineffective in that configuration at what it did they ended up putting all that back on for most of the airframes!! Weight was not the issue with the P-40. Or, perhaps it's better to say weight savings was not the solution.


The 109G-6 was a better machine than the G-2, for example, even though it was heavier. better radio, better guns, etc, made it a better killer.

Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2011, 03:31:40 PM »
Meh.. I don't think range was the issue... It had to be able to kill the enemy *at* that range. Hence the race for speed, alt, climb, etc.

If it can't get there, performance doesn't really matter.


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Offline Bino

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Re: Why did the P-40 lag behind?
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2011, 03:58:55 PM »
Beyond the differences in simple form drag of the fuselage and the engine/cowling/cooling system, and the ability of the P-51 cooling system to actually generate *thrust*, there were also the airfoils.  The P-40 warhawk used a semi-symmetrical 1930's airfoil, while the P-51 Mustang had an early example of a laminar-flow airfoil...

P-40

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NACA_2215.svg


P-51


« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 04:02:25 PM by Bino »


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